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Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by bluejekyll on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @04:07PM (#14151286)
The argument was that the US had gained a "defend the rights of man", i.e. Democracy, attitude because of the Civil War (though honestly with the early end of Reconstruction, I'm not sure it's valid). This attitude eventually encouraged the US to come directly into the War, though the US had been giving significant support to England and France prior to that point.

I agree that it's weak though. And Britain is definitely the reason Germany wasn't capable of overrunning France. America at best made it clear that Germany could not win. While 120,000 troops lost by the US is far less than the Europeans, that is by no means a small number, especially considering such brief involvement.

There really was no reason to ever believe the US would ever get involved in WWI. Even WWII there was no indication the US would actually enter the War directly until the Japanese forced the choice.

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by hackuser on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @06:32PM (#14152394)
> Even WWII there was no indication the US would actually enter the War directly until the Japanese forced the choice.

That seems like conventional wisdom, but the U.S. started a large military build-up before Pearl Harbor. The military draft began in 1940. And of course the U.S. was actively supporting the UK through lend-lease.

There were still isolationists in Washington and even prominent supporters of Hitler in the public sphere (if you ever wonder how misguided people can be, remember that), but certainly there were many indications that the U.S. would enter the war.

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by bluejekyll on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @07:57PM (#14152866)
No debate on any of those points.

But, until Pearl Harbor and the Philippines there was no clear pretext for the US to declare war. And had they not attacked, it's not clear that FDR could have gotten congress to declare war. Some of those prominent supporters were significant industrialists like Ford, they would have fought intervention by all means.

After Pearl Harbor, there was no debate.

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by hackuser on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:38PM (#14153042)
I've heard that too, but how did the draft, Lend-Lease, and the build-up get passed through Congress before Pearl Harbor if there wasn't sufficient support?

Maybe the first and third were seen as necessary to protect a neutral country? Or being short of declaring war, they were less objectionable? But I'm just guessing ...

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by jcranmer on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @10:17PM (#14153448)
> I've heard that too, but how did the draft, Lend-Lease, and the build-up get passed through Congress before Pearl Harbor if there wasn't sufficient support?

Lend-Lease had fairly staunch resistance, as it basically shredded any pretense of neutrality. The draft and the military build-up were supported in large part due to neutrality--the need to have a sufficiently strong military to deter potential aggression (this was the strategy of Switzerland). When FDR extended the draft term from 12 months to 18 months, it passed by a single vote in the House.

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by bluejekyll on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @09:34PM (#14153278)
My guess is that most people were already aligned with the Allies, and there was money to be made. I think the arguments for Germany were less of a "let's join Germany" and more of a "let's just not get involved", thereby seeding the European continent to Germany.

But, yes the US had a constant stream of arms being supplied to Britain and Russia during the period before the war.

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by vacri on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @05:45PM (#14152085)
If the US's involvement was because of 'defend the rights of man', it sure took it's time getting properly involved. It doesn't even really make sense, because it's not like the Germans were going to enslave the French if they won.
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by Clubber on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @05:50PM (#14152125)
During WWI and WWII, the US made a fortune selling armaments to the allies and then joining the war towards the end. In WWII we claimed an equal share of the spoils, at least in Europe. England, France, US and the USSR split the spoils of WWII but the USSR definitely deserved 3/4 of it for their sacrifice.

I always akin it to tag team wrestling. The first guy beats the other team almost silly, then tags out and the fresh guy comes in fresh and finishes them off.

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by PerfectDlite on Friday April 21, 2017 @10:20AM (#14165819)
> USSR definitely deserved 3/4 of it for their sacrifice

If only USSR didn't enter WW2 on Hitler's side...

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by flukus on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:23PM (#14152977)
World wars aren't a 1 on 1 fight though. WW1 was a 3 on 2 fight and the US involvement early would have made it 4 on 2, tipping the scales considerably.
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by Clubber on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @09:22PM (#14153237)
Yes, but the US was staunchly isolationist during that period (since it's founding). In fact, the founding fathers wrote extensively about not getting involved in European wars; military isolationism was in our DNA. That's hard to believe today. Wilson actually campaigned on an anti-war platform (as did FDR).
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by vacri on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @09:44PM (#14153321)
> military isolationism was in our DNA

... You mean apart from the Indian wars which annexed territory, the Mexican-American war which annexed territory, and the Spanish-American war which annexed territory? Then there was the War of 1812, where the US tried and failed to annex Canadian territory. Or the Barbary wars.

The US not wanting to involve itself in internal European wars does not mean it was militarily isolationist. The US has been projecting military power beyond its borders pretty much since its inception. Military power projection is in the US's DNA, not isolationism.

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by Clubber on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @10:02PM (#14153396)
Look up the definition of isolationism.
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by vacri on Thursday April 20, 2017 @12:08AM (#14153870)
I would say that invading the territory of other nations and annexing it counts as involving yourself in the affairs of other nations. Historically, the US didn't want to interfere in Europe, absolutely, but it stuck its fingers in pretty much every other pie, excluding sub-Saharan Africa.

I mean, how do you characterise sending warships to scare Japan into opening up for trade in 1868 as 'isolationism'?

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by Clubber on Thursday April 20, 2017 @08:26AM (#14156001)
Isolationism doesn't mean never projecting military power, it means not getting involved in alliances that don't serve, or barely serve our own interests.

George Washington's farewell address addressed this:

"The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. Europe has a set of primary interests, which to us have none, or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves, by artificial ties, in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities."

Thomas Jefferson said that one of the "essential principles of our government" is that of "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none."

Monroe:

"In the wars of the European powers, in matters relating to themselves, we have never taken part, nor does it comport with our policy, so to do. It is only when our rights are invaded, or seriously menaced that we resent injuries, or make preparations for our defense."

Seward:

"defending 'our policy of non-intervention—straight, absolute, and peculiar as it may seem to other nations'...[t]he American people must be content to recommend the cause of human progress by the wisdom with which they should exercise the powers of self-government, forbearing at all times, and in every way, from foreign alliances, intervention, and interference."

Here's a Wiki on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-intervention...

You seem to be arguing that the US projects military power in it's own interests. That's undeniable, but claiming that as a counterpoint that we weren't isolationist in the 19th century is not what isolation means. For recent examples: invading Afghanistan was for our own interests; we were attacked by a group sheltered by their government. Iraq was not. Syria is not. Balkans in the 1990s was not. Panama was because of the canal and trade routes. WWI and WWII ultimately was in our best interests but it wasn't obvious at the time, particularly early on, and the cost was immense. Right now, we are so intertwined in alliances that if just about any country goes to war outside of sub-saharan Africa, we are automatically at war.

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by vacri on Thursday April 20, 2017 @10:13AM (#14156778)
Your definition of isolationism makes no sense. The alliances that France had with the UK and Russia at the start of WWI served France's own interests, for example, yet France wouldn't be painted as isolationist. Countries make alliances that serve their own interest - how often do you see countries making alliances for net loss?

And despite you quoting several people including terms like "forbearing at all times, and in every way ... intervention and interference", I have already furnished you with more than a few examples of the US actively intervening and interfering. The US not only meddled a heap in the Americas, but also outside it's own area (like the Philippines and Japan, already mentioned). Neither does 'non-intervention' square with things like backing Cuba in a war of independence against Spain. That's the living, breathing definition of 'intervention'.

You seem to be missing my point that the US was politically isolationist with respect to Europe, but it wasn't isolationist outside of Europe.

> Afghanistan was for our own interests; we were attacked by a group sheltered by their government. Iraq was not. Syria is not. Balkans in the 1990s was not.

This is all total propaganda. Iraq was 100% in the US's interests (or perhaps better put, the incumbent government's interests), and the US fabricated a casus belli to invade, against the wishes of its allies, and with no quality intelligence. Syria is a leftover from the Iraq debacle; the US would lose considerable international reputation if it just shrugged and walked away from the consequences of the clusterfuck it caused in Iraq. There was no alliance requiring that the US invade unilaterally in the case of Iraq, and the consequences of that populist action are now tearing Europe apart. There is more to national interests than conquering territory and acts of military revenge.

If the US got itself involved in conflicts that weren't in its interests, then it'd be much more involved in sub-Saharan Africa. Or filling eastern Ukraine with gung-ho marines and reverting the annexation of Crimea. I don't expect any nation to act against its interests, but if people are going to persist with the myth that the US really is the 'world cop', then it's a corrupt cop who looks the other way when there's no kickback coming its way.

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by Clubber on Thursday April 20, 2017 @04:24PM (#14160494)
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by hackuser on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @06:35PM (#14152412)
Sorry, my mistake. Message deleted.
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by barrkel on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @07:12PM (#14152614)
We were talking about WWI, not WWII.
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by stevefolta on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @07:53PM (#14152843)
> Even WWII there was no indication the US would actually enter the War directly until the Japanese forced the choice.

...and even then, it wasn't entirely clear that the US would enter the European war, until Hitler declared war on the US.

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by autokad on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @05:10PM (#14151811)
England definitely slowed Germany down but Germany was decidedly winning.

Prior to US involvement, the front line was quite close to Paris. After, it was just over the border of Germany, and then as you said, they knew it was over. US' involvement was huge.

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by jonathonf on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @05:33PM (#14152001)
> England

Britain. Along with contingents from most of its Empire.

(Saying "England" when you mean "Britain" is like saying "Texas" when you mean "U.S.A.")

Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by flukus on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:17PM (#14152949)
Not during WW1 it wasn't, calling a Scotsman English wasn't an issue at the time.
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by afarrell on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:48PM (#14153098)
Really? When did the Scots start to develop a notion of having a unique national character that made them non-English?
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by flukus on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @09:02PM (#14153167)
Well, obviously it was centuries ago but it has ebbed and flowed since then. For the 20th century though a lot of Scottish nationalism originated in the Scottish renaissance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Renaissance).
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by foobarian on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @09:00PM (#14153155)
Serious question, what would be the analogous comparisons for "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom?"
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by aninhumer on Thursday April 20, 2017 @03:14AM (#14154586)
I guess an analogous comparison would anything that forgets that Hawaii and/or Alaska exist when referring to the US.
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by rmckayfleming on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @09:29PM (#14153263)
Great Britain is the island. So an analogy would be North America and United States of America. Roughly of course.
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by caf on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:13PM (#14152937)
It's said that the first shot fired by the British Empire in WW1 was from Fort Nepean, Australia.
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by hardlianotion on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:54PM (#14153125)
No, the US broke a stalemate. The Germans were near Paris for most of the war - the location of Paris is what makes the Schieffen plan attractive. The US took a year or so to get onto a War production footing, but then her production started to force the issue. In combat, US helped to stem the German 1918 spring offensive, and were most decisive in the final offensive.
Re:Why 1866 Set the Stage for Two World Wars by caf on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:29PM (#14152999)
There really was no reason to ever believe the US would ever get involved in WWI.

On the contrary, I think it is exceedingly likely that the US will always intervene (if it has the capacity to do so) if a single military power looks like taking over most of Europe. It's why the US intervened in both WWI and WWII, and created NATO.