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Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by kolbe on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @09:53AM (#14147687)
> the less active money there is around, the less accurate our concept of a correct value can be

The problem is deeper than that. Active shareholders actually give a shit about corporate governance. Collectively, they put honorable and competent people on the board of directors, and make sensible decisions when other issues are put to shareholder votes. Vanguard and other indexing funds could barely care. Their incentive to care is so small, we may as well call it nothing. Whereas the employees who control these voting blocks at Vanguard can easily make decisions that cause 10,000x more financial impact than their total compensation. And whenever someone is endowed with such power, human behavior throughout our existence has shown most people will be corrupted by it (e.g. see government employees).

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by Paul-ish on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @11:17AM (#14148298)
Some researchers have looked at the effect of passive investors on corporate governance[1] :

> Still, these funds retain the power of voice, the ability to exert shareholder influence on management and governance-related proposals. But critics say passively invested funds, with their lower fees, lack the resources and often the will to monitor their large and diverse portfolios. The Economist calls them “lazy investors.”...

> My fellow researchers and I set out to test that claim. In our forthcoming research paper in The Journal of Financial Economics, we show that passive institutions do indeed positively shape firms’ governance policies. Our findings run contrary to the presumption that passive investors lack the willingness and ability to influence firms’ policy choices.

> The results of our analysis suggests that passive investors affect firm governance in several ways. For example, we found that an increase in passive ownership is associated with a statistically significant increase in the share of independent directors on firms’ boards. In addition, firms with higher passive investor ownership were more likely to remove firm takeover defenses (for example, so-called “poison pills” and limitations on shareholders calling special board meetings). They were also less likely to have the unequal voting rights of a dual-class share structure.

[1] https://hbr.org/2016/05/research-index-funds-are-improving-c...

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by kolbe on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:08PM (#14148796)
I don't know how to say this, but I would trust a common sense understanding of human behavior over research. If there's one rule in life, it's that high finance will exploit legal and immoral loopholes to accumulate wealth, and there is plenty of opportunity for that here, despite the rigorous academic studies done by an institution that is highly connected to the people who can profit off of it.
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by slackstation on Friday April 21, 2017 @03:00PM (#14168340)
This exact sentiment is exactly how research was born. In large complex systems, a few ideas pop up that take the system in non-intuitive directions; non-linearity of influence of small factors, hidden factors, etc.

Also, I would counter that in a firm, the legal and immoral loopholes that would give one party greater wealth would do so 1) at the expense of other parties inside the firm and 2) run the risk of bad optics / PR to institutional investors who look out for things like this when evaluating a firm.

Lastly, the aggregate of these factors is baked into the return on investment of a stock. In other words, I suspect that might be happening in firms that are making alot of money and providing healthy returns for shareholders. Alot less so at firms that are struggling and not providing much growth.

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by cowsandmilk on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @02:43PM (#14150525)
You claim that Vanguard doesn't care about corporate governance, but that doesn't match their voting record.

For instance, at the 2016 Alphabet meeting, they voted for Alphabet shareholders having one vote per share and adoption of a majority vote for election of the board. Those are the very core corporate governance oddities that Alphabet is using to allow the founders and Eric Schmidt to have total control of the company and Vanguard voted their shares towards better governance.

Obviously, since Eric Schmidt and the founders have the majority of the votes, these didn't pass, but they voted the way you would have liked and against management.

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by kolbe on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @05:13PM (#14151828)
So you found one anecdote where they cast a meaningless vote in a direction that you agree with (not necessarily the correct direction, but whatever), and you think this constituted a rebuttal to my statements? I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of instances where Vanguard voted in a direction you agree with, but that doesn't change my argument.
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by _delirium on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @10:08AM (#14147783)
I'd make that narrower than "active shareholders". The only kinds of active shareholders who can exercise informed and effective oversight are large, professional active shareholders, who buy significant percentages of companies (enough to have a voting share that matters) and have in-house research and legal departments. Many active shareholders don't really look like that. The retail stock-picker buying stocks on ETrade isn't in a position to exercise oversight of the companies they're buying any more than they'd be if they were buying them through index funds. So I don't think much is lost in terms of corporate governance if that group of people moves from stock-picking to index funds. In principle, something could still be lost in the stock price signal if they move to index funds (a different question than corporate governance), although whether retail stock pickers, even taken collectively, are contributing anything useful to the price signal is not necessarily certain.
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by nickjarboe on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @10:32AM (#14147939)
Individuals buying smaller amounts of stocks may not be exercising their votes or have a board member in their back pocket, but they can in the aggregate greatly influence one thing upper management does care about: the stock's price. Unfortunately, if you think management is too focused on the short term, if everybody investing with long horizons buys mutual funds and day traders focus on individual stocks, management is likely to be even more short term focused.
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by kolbe on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:18PM (#14148904)
Whether they are mentally capable of making good decisions is another story. But presuming those people exist, then the system should at least be structured in such a way that they're incentivized to use them to properly manage their own assets, rather than in more shifty/nefarious ways.

Tell me what you think the result of this scenario might look like. A manager wants to conduct an LBO that grossly undervalues a stock. He couldn't get the votes from shareholders if they were paying attention, but instead he walks up to management at Blackrock, Vanguard and State Steet, and offers the people in charge of voting a very lucrative job at the new private company. How do you think they'll vote?

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by jessriedel on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @02:37PM (#14150475)
What would you think about a system where a major institution (e.g. Vanguard) holds index funds, but the shareholder voting for each company in those funds is done by a different in-house team whose compensation is tied to the performance of that particular company? (More realistically, you'd just need a different team for each company in a given industry, but one team could vote for multiple companies that don't compete with each other.) It's "passive investing with active shareholder governance" in the sense that only voting, not dollars, are actively directed.
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by kolbe on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @05:08PM (#14151788)
I don't like it. It suffers from the same problems, but just window dresses them. There's no way to make that team financially culpable without charging fees related to the results, and those fees are largely what people are trying to avoid when using these low lost index funds. And those fees need to be very sizable to be consistent with the value of the decisions they're making.

I think a better approach would be to pass through voting to the owners, but given that most shareholders don't know enough for their vote to be more than a random guess, that wouldn't much solve the problem, either. But at least the people who are affected by the decisions being made are the ones making the decisions.

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by jessriedel on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @09:58PM (#14153372)
> without charging fees related to the results,

I don't understand why that would be the case. Just charge a flat fee for the fund and distribute proportionally to the teams whose companies do best.

It sounds impossible to satisfy your desiderata with unsophisticated investors. They will have to delegate the task of assessing board decisions to someone.

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by bluGill on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @11:20AM (#14148328)
Actually Vanguard claims they care more: active investors will get out if things go bad - they might even make decisions that are good short term bad long term. Vanguard is in for the long term so they care more. One of the things Vanguard can do is ensure good management is in place.
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by jalopy on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @11:32AM (#14148427)
But then that would be active management. This is something Vanguard expressly does not do.
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by sigstoat on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:39PM (#14149825)
That's not what active management is. "We believe that our active engagement demonstrates that passive investors don’t need to be passive owners."

https://about.vanguard.com/vanguard-proxy-voting/

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by jessriedel on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @02:48PM (#14150574)
To clarify for other: the distinction is between (1) active choice of what stocks to buy and (2) active voting as a shareholder.
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by wbl on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @11:52AM (#14148612)
They don't do active fund management AKA stockpicking. The sure do care about making sure management doesn't have it's hand in the till.
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by jalopy on Thursday April 20, 2017 @11:41AM (#14157655)
By "active management" I mean actively taking a role in shaping company management, board makeup, corporate governance, say on pay, etc.

While Vanguard may vote all their shareholder proxies, they almost always vote along with the recommendations of management - practically never holding management accountable.

Proof: Take a look at their actual voting record on the S&P 500 fund https://about.vanguard.com/vanguard-proxy-voting/supporting-...

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by marcosdumay on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @10:05AM (#14147757)
Yet, this is a general problem of all kinds of investment funds, not only of index ones.

It is a huge problem (and probably responsible for much of the lawlessness we can find on Wall Street), but the switch from active to passive investment shouldn't change a thing.

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by kolbe on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:23PM (#14148957)
It's not necessarily active vs passive. It's skin in the game vs no skin. Low fee index funds offer no incentive for the managers to do any actual managing. They follow an equation, and collect a few bps.
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by marcosdumay on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:59PM (#14149330)
Yes, it's not even that simple. It's about having enough skin on the game.

No big fund manager has enough skin on the game. That has been true for most of last century and all of the current one, and the expected results are visibly there.

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by kolbe on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:21PM (#14149608)
This is why my push isn't to necessarily increase the active management profession, but instead increase the intelligence of individuals and freedom of necessary information for them to properly manage and understand their own assets. Even if they do just end up choosing to invest in a market cap weighted broad based index, it's important for them to understand how to behave with the management of those assets and to have the ability to manage them (see the distinction versus investing in index funds, because Vanguard's investors do not manage their assets). And if they do not have the requisite intelligence to manage and understand the things they own, maybe they shouldn't own them.
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by gech on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @10:11AM (#14147805)
> Collectively, they put honorable and competent people on the board of directors, and make sensible decisions when other issues are put to shareholder votes.

I don't believe this. They bring in axemen to cut jobs for a bump in stock price. For one, why do they allow for huge severance packages even when they fail?

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by KKKKkkkk1 on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @10:28AM (#14147923)
Talking about honorable and competent people on the board of directors. I recently realized that Apple's board of directors includes Al Gore. He's certainly a honorable man, but what does he know about making and selling iPhones? Why is he on Apple's board of directors?
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by fictioncircle on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @10:33AM (#14147947)
> Talking about honorable and competent people on the board of directors. I recently realized that Apple's board of directors includes Al Gore. He's certainly a honorable man, but what does he know about making and selling iPhones? Why is he on Apple's board of directors?

His job isn't to make and sell cell phones. His primary function is to make the C-suite accountable to shareholders. The C-suite's job is to make and sell cell phones.

Frankly, Boards function mostly on business metrics and people skills that are generic to any business.

Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by ralfd on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @03:45PM (#14151090)
Al Gores real job on the Apples board had been to have Steve Jobs back. Jobs wanted a card blanche to lead Apple (and never be fired again) so he picked a respectable board loyal/friendly to him.
Re:Vanguard Is Growing Faster Than Everybody Else Combined by dagw on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @10:33AM (#14147954)
Why is he on Apple's board of directors?

He has a working knowledge of how governments operate, and as such knows the right person to call and the right procedure to follow to get stuff done. He probably also still knows a bunch of people whom could be useful to know if you're operating a huge multinational company.