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Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by bspn on Friday April 14, 2017 @10:44AM (#14114728)
I too am considering a move to NZ for family reasons, and visited Auckland last month. It truly is a spectacular city framed by an amazing harbor, but it's not without some faults. My thoughts on the cons you raise based on conversations I had with a few locals:

> housing prices are extremely high. I don't understand that, there is plenty of space everywhere (maybe except Wellington) and somehow they manage to not use this advantage..

Yes, it really is crazy particularly when you look at prices relative to salaries. As I understand it, the primary driver is everyone wants to live in Auckland as that's where most of the higher paying jobs are located which is driving up prices. Also, given the city is on an isthmus, the main space is really North and South of the city which increases commute times on already clogged highways.

> housing quality is really poor (comparing to Europe)

This is slowly changing as proper insulation becomes a requirement, but compared to Europe and US houses the quality is incredibly poor.

> prices are generally quite high

For consumer goods, absolutely. Also dining out seemed expensive, but supermarket costs seemed pretty reasonable given the quality of the food.

>internet connectivity feels like we're 10 years back

I was pleasantly surprised by this. I was regularly getting 50-100 down where I stayed, and it appears the government has made ultra-fast broadband a national priority so it should hopefully continue to improve over the next decade. One thing people warned me though is don't expect anything to happen quickly in NZ.

>outside of Wellington and Auckland, I didn't feel like there were any interesting opportunities in IT

Have you looked at Christchurch? Apparently the government is incentivizing companies to build there with the goal of making it the high tech capital of the South Island. I believe Vodafone has some pretty impressive plans for the city.

>food quality is good, but eating habits don't seem to follow. Obesity seems to be a huge problem there (we have kids so will need to pay double attention to that). We were pretty much shocked because we naively thought that in such a beautiful and clean country everybody is running / biking all the time.

I believe this is largely driven by income inequality, much like here in the US. While the food really is phenomenal quality, families at the lower end of the socio-economic ladder are often priced out of the market and default to unhealthy options as a matter of necessity. Also, it was explained to me that a lot of Maori and Polynesian recipes are very fatty which is why they tend to be over-represented in obesity statistics.

Overall my impression after visiting is that it's a great country, but it's not perfect. Prices are higher (due to it's isolation) and salaries are lower, but people tend to worry less about materialistic things and "getting ahead". There seems to be more of a relaxed mood to everything and as my wife contemplate where we want to raise our kids that is hugely appealing.

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by jly on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:10AM (#14114899)
My wife is an expat kiwi and we visit NZ every year since most of her family lives there still. We have also been contemplating a move back from the US, but housing prices (especially Auckland, but everywhere that isn't rural farmland is an issue) and lower salaries are the only thing preventing us, still. Auckland is an amazing city but it's so incredibly congested and expensive that unless you are wealthy or in the housing market already, it's very difficult to make a go there.

> Have you looked at Christchurch? Apparently the government is incentivizing companies to build there with the goal of making it the high tech capital of the South Island. I believe Vodafone has some pretty impressive plans for the city.

I was last in Chch a couples years ago, so it may be changing, but my impression was not great. My wife lived there during the earthquake and their recovery has been slow. I think it will improve, especially with increased investment, but it's probably years away from being anywhere like Auckland or Wellington again. Even 2-3 years ago the downtown area was essentially a ghost town from what I remember, and that's still several years post-earthquake.

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by EdwardDiego on Friday April 14, 2017 @05:31PM (#14117607)
Yeah, the rebuild is very slow, which frustrates the locals no end, but it's happening. CBD (aka "downtown") area aside, we've never stopped being like Auckland or Wellington - we have overpriced houses and congested motorways too!
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by dvtv75 on Friday April 14, 2017 @07:36PM (#14118289)
My understanding was also that Christchurch is the most dangerous city in the country, but I've no figures to back that up. My ex lives up there, and when I stayed with her family they had me lock the car door when we were driving through the central city, something that I found very odd, and not at all reassuring.
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by mkl on Friday April 14, 2017 @09:44PM (#14118864)
I live in Christchurch and that's news to me. The central city is best avoided for other reasons: the 2010-2011 earthquakes disproportionately affected the old buildings there and the rebuild means it's a constantly shifting maze of closed roads and detours. This is now hardly noticeable in most of the rest of the city.

I found an article [1] about it which contradicts your understanding of the crime here. Auckland is much worse as a city overall, but Cathedral Square in Christchurch is dangerous compared to the rest of the country. I can't find a good comparison of actual crime rates between countries, but did find articles saying the perception of crime risk is way off here compared to reality.

1. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/79704084/New-Zealand-rates-f...

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by EdwardDiego on Monday April 17, 2017 @08:54PM (#14135716)
That's not at all correct. South Auckland would be far more dangerous and as for locking your door to drive through the CBD? That's very weird. Were they South African migrants at all? They tend to be a tad more paranoid.
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by TheAlchemist on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:29AM (#14115010)
We didn't looked at Christchurch - we assumed that as most people live in the northern island, we will probably end up here, so we preferred to spend full time there.

For food, it seems like for the food problem it's also caused by the lack of 'culinary education' as we may call it in France. Children are eating bad food very early and those habits stick for life.

We too have kids, and it looks like an amazing place to raise them ! People are super friendly, especially to kids. There are playgrounds everywhere, a ton of outside activities to do. One thing bothering me a bit is the lack of history / culture, at least as I know it. This is again very biased by my education, but in Europe, you have castles, small villages with rich history literally everywhere. NZ is much younger so it's not surprising of course. Just a little con I forgot to mention.

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by bspn on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:39AM (#14115067)
With respect to kids, one thing that surprised me was that almost everyone I spoke to lived within walking distance of their kids' school and were more than happy to let their kids find their own way to and from school unsupervised! I don't know whether they were just trolling me, but it seems like a lot of the fears we have here in the US don't exist so much in NZ.
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by justinclift on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:41AM (#14115079)
Kids walking to school by themselves (once old enough to have decent judgement/not get lost :>) isn't at all unusual in towns in Australia either.
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by TheAlchemist on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:42AM (#14115085)
I actually noticed to opposite in some parts of the country - a school bus doing what appeared to be a 20km tour in the countryside :)

But yeah, totally agree on the fears - kids have a lot of freedom there. On the other hand, I believe US is an outlier here too - it's quite frequent in Europe to let kids get back home alone.

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by RowanH on Friday April 14, 2017 @01:55PM (#14115914)
Not trolling you. It's a thing here. I did when I was a kid, and still happens today.
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by EdwardDiego on Friday April 14, 2017 @05:30PM (#14117592)
> We didn't looked at Christchurch

South Island is best island buddy ;)

> For food, it seems like for the food problem it's also caused by the lack of 'culinary education' as we may call it in France.

Obesity directly correlates to poverty here.

> One thing bothering me a bit is the lack of history / culture, at least as I know it. This is again very biased by my education, but in Europe, you have castles, small villages with rich history literally everywhere

Yep, we're a young nation, I routinely drink in pubs in Munich that are older than my country - but New Zealand's history is older than NZ, Maori have been here since the 1100s at least. Also, our natural history is very compelling .

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by nkrisc on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:46AM (#14115113)
Your thoughts on culture/history are interesting considering the islands have been inhabited in some fashion for around 800 years at least.
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by TheAlchemist on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:56AM (#14115182)
That's why I mention that it's very biased by my 'European culture' sense - old villages, medieval castles, places you read about in the books etc. In NZ, the oldest building has less than 200 years.

Of course, the Maori culture is amazing and I'm eager to learn more about. It's just that I feel like my kids will miss something I had the chance to experience.

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by lostlogin on Friday April 14, 2017 @03:19PM (#14116501)
If you get the chance, have a look into some of the battles that happened around the country. You can go to many of the sites and key locations extremely easily. They often happened in such recent history that the effects are still relevant today. For example, being able to stand in the room where the battle of Gate Pa was planned and dinner was eaten, then see the site a few KM away gives a good perspective.
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by nkrisc on Friday April 14, 2017 @03:07PM (#14116421)
Regardless of where you raise them there are experiences they will miss by living there, and experiences they can only have by living there. I can only speak for myself but I wouldn't fret over it.
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by 0xADEADBEE on Friday April 14, 2017 @09:50PM (#14118881)
I'd disagree with your last point: 'Getting ahead', and the instinct behind it seems to me to be the main driver behind New Zealanders being generally much more entrepreneurial than their European counterparts (anecdotal is not the plural of data, notwithstanding). Additionally, working in Wellington yields a London rate but without the equivalent expense (I'm a contractor); so attainment of 'ahead' is well within the grasp of someone competent and reachable for those who aren't, at least as far as I can tell. While I am in no position to comment, my experience has also lent itself to the deduction that the education system here isn't as rigorous as it is in other places, but this is entirely anecdotal also, so should be taken for exactly what it is worth.

I guess if I'm being picky, I'd also pick you up on the point prior; fatty foods aren't necessarily correlated to obesity, but I'm guessing that's not exactly what you're driving at.

Thank you for making me think a little more!

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by Applejinx on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:42AM (#14115083)
> housing prices are extremely high. I don't understand that, there is plenty of space everywhere (maybe except Wellington) and somehow they manage to not use this advantage..

Call it an experiment in whether they can build a country around American tech billionaires. I would wonder whether the prices of things reflect that, and whether it's different if you're a native (or whether there's some other mechanism at work: in Vermont, I pay less for housing because I'm able to declare my home as a homestead. If I was an out-of-stater keeping a summer house in Vermont I'd be paying a different rate.)

It will be interesting to see how New Zealand deals with its influx of hyper-wealthy. That will probably continue until we invent the intercontinental ballistic pitchfork ;)

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by lostlogin on Friday April 14, 2017 @03:21PM (#14116517)
We give them more from the taxpayer's pocket. http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&obj...
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by AOsborn on Friday April 14, 2017 @09:04PM (#14118730)
I live in Auckland. Agree with pretty much all your comments, I think you have a good handle on the environment.

One point to add - mentioned in other comments in the thread: the Auckland housing market is toxic.

No captial gains tax on property along with crowded population in Auckland means that this is the best investment available, hands down. The yield isn't in the rental market, but appreciation of 30-40% YOY has not been uncommon.

The major side effect of this that many people miss is that business investment has been stifled because property is a far safer bet. Auckland has a very weak startup/VC scene, and salaries have not increased in line with living costs.

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by abalashov on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:55AM (#14115178)
One concern I always have in the back of my mind about NZ is seismic activity. I thought of it since you mentioned Christchurch.

It's unlikely to be seen as a major downside by those living in California and along the Pacific Rim, and it's clear NZ is no worse than Japan in terms of seismic risk, yet an advanced economy with plenty of people thrives there, to put it mildly.

But coming from the US midwest and then the southeast, where these issues are seldom a concern, it makes me nervous.

What are your thoughts on that?

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by bspn on Friday April 14, 2017 @12:03PM (#14115223)
It would for sure be a concern - and to be fair I don't know a whole lot about the risk other than it seems to be a volatile area - but probably no more so than the hurricanes, tornados etc we see here in parts of the US. From what I understand, the seismic risk is greater along the fault lines which run through Wellington and the South Island, so if you're based in Auckland you're probably more worried about a volcano suddenly springing back to life than you are an earthquake!
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by EdwardDiego on Friday April 14, 2017 @05:33PM (#14117623)
We are still expecting a very big earthquake. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Fault

But, the earthquake that hit Christchurch directly removed the seismically vulnerable buildings, and typically we've built for earthquakes - hence why our predominant building material is wood not brick or stone.

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by HXFIVE on Friday April 14, 2017 @10:09PM (#14118948)
Christchurch should be pretty safe now with all the dangerous building having come down and new buildings being built to high seismic standards. I personally would never consider Wellington as I believe the earthquake risk is too high.
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by TheAlchemist on Friday April 14, 2017 @12:02PM (#14115216)
Just don't go to Rotorua :)

The whole place feels like it's unstable and ready to blow ! I loved the city, but I'm not sure I could live there, with those constant remainders of the seismic activity (this plus the smell...)

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by EdwardDiego on Friday April 14, 2017 @05:36PM (#14117641)
I wouldn't worry about earthquakes in Rotorua - if you get any, they're a helpful warning of impending eruption ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taupo_Volcanic_Zone

Fun fact - Auckland is built on a large monogenetic volcanic field.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_volcanic_field

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by justinclift on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:30AM (#14115011)
> I was regularly getting 50-100 down

Which units of measurement? :)

Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by bspn on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:36AM (#14115053)
Ha, so true - fortunately in this case it was mbps. People were talking about government plans for gigabit speeds, but then warned me not to hold me breath waiting.
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by jordanthoms on Friday April 14, 2017 @07:21PM (#14118187)
Gigabit is available widely now, anywhere that has UFB Fiber (which is most likely what you were on if you were getting 50+ mbit).
Re:As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw by justinclift on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:39AM (#14115070)
Cool, that's workable speed. :)