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Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by avaer on Thursday April 13, 2017 @06:46AM (#14105720)
Open source software has to be one of the least efficient markets out there.

If you sum up the very real value PhantomJS has delivered to very real companies over the last several years, napkin math tells me we wouldn't have the project being abandoned for being a "bloody hell" to work on.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by Cthulhu_ on Thursday April 13, 2017 @06:52AM (#14105747)
The main problem for developers is that getting your company to pay for something like developer tools can be very hard and a long project. Ideally every team gets a budget and a credit card to do as they see fit, but in practice a lot of (especially bigger) companies have a whole acquisition process. It's not uncommon for the hours spent in getting a license for e.g. an editor to be far more expensive than the product itself. I believe this is often highlighted again when Sublime Text is in the news again.

This as opposed to open source tooling which has no such hurdles.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by taude on Thursday April 13, 2017 @07:32AM (#14105911)
Why do you think open source tooling has no such hurdles? At these same "larger" companies, they're going to have an open source review board, and legal involved for each open source product you want to use.

Just because you can download and use it on your local machine, doesn't mean you're not violating your corp policy and procedure.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by hackits on Thursday April 13, 2017 @08:35AM (#14106239)
Whats more surprising is the company I work for does have a support agreement with Oracle, although when we've run into problems that do need a technical expert from Oracle such as crash dumps and stack traces we're told to figure it out our-self.

Kind of defeats the whole reason to have a closed source system when you're still on the hook and charging out $500 per hour to clients.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by nulagrithom on Thursday April 13, 2017 @10:37AM (#14107298)
This problem was well demonstrated at my shop the other day. There's a lot of fear of open source here. We needed to run a simple FTP process. I said I'd write a short script.

"You've gotta be careful with those free tools though... Never know what will happen when they break. You can't get any support. Besides, we need logging and alerting too."

"Oh, $currentTool does logging and alerting?"

"Well, yes... But it's currently not working. We've got a ticket in to fix it."

That was months ago. Yesterday it broke and there was no alert. There's also still no logs.

Gotta be careful about that "open source" stuff though.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by lurker456 on Thursday April 13, 2017 @12:26PM (#14108429)
Open source doesn't allow you to pass the buck. Commercial software with support contracts does. There is also the "look how much we're paying! it must be good" factor.
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by brazzledazzle on Friday April 14, 2017 @01:17AM (#14112832)
Many companies are paid handsomely to take the blame.
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by taude on Thursday April 13, 2017 @03:44PM (#14110313)
They're also afraid of the abomination you quickly scripted together that the future-you, who no longer works for them, then has to try and figure out.
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by nulagrithom on Thursday April 13, 2017 @04:53PM (#14110834)
ffs it's just FTP. All it needed was a scheduled task that called winscp pointed to a file containing a handful of flat FTP commands. If the guy who replaces me can't sort that out, how's he going to sort through my code?

Besides, now it's some abomination wrapped inside a proprietary program that doesn't work right in the first place, only this time we're out the $x,xxx licensing costs and the entire process is opaque, with absolutely zero hope of sorting it out on our own. That's not a huge gain...

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by jonny_eh on Thursday April 13, 2017 @10:18AM (#14107108)
and then you can't search stackoverflow for help, compared to using something like postgres
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by brazzledazzle on Friday April 14, 2017 @01:21AM (#14112841)
Is it fair to say that kind of people that want to pay for an SFTP client for an automated process probably aren't doing much digging around on stackoverflow?
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by nailer on Thursday April 13, 2017 @10:33AM (#14107263)
A good way to address this is have a tools budget.

Product Manager has $X per team member. Is encouraged to coordinate purchases and pool purchases together for licenses. Licenses can be proprietary or Open Source licenses X, Y and Z.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by azernik on Thursday April 13, 2017 @07:02AM (#14105784)
It's a classic "public good" - an economic activity whose benefits are impractical or unworthwhile to deny to those who don't pay. Things like emergency services, last-mile road infrastructure, and environmental protection work. A special-case of positive externalities. These are a classic example used by economists of a natural place for government in the economy.
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by IshKebab on Thursday April 13, 2017 @07:18AM (#14105850)
Which makes me wonder why governments don't give more grants for writing open source code.

They do it for research, which is another thing that would otherwise probably not pay for itself.

I guess if they started doing it a lot of commercial companies would complain to them about the competition.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by oever on Thursday April 13, 2017 @08:03AM (#14106054)
Dutch government has explicitly funded quite some projects, e.g. libressl and libreoffice, but compared to budgets for closed source, it's still very little.

Here's a nice blog about how the UK deals with this.

https://governmenttechnology.blog.gov.uk/2016/12/15/next-ste...

As to infrastructure work, easiest way to help and still profit is to hire one or more developers that explicitly work on a set of FOSS libraries. That way you have that knowledge in-house and a connection into the community. Also, you'll have some highly motivated employees.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by earthboundkid on Thursday April 13, 2017 @09:07AM (#14106471)
I think that in the US, we've been fighting for some long about how much to cut government, the idea of proposing to create a new category of spending just doesn't occur to Democrats. The closest they can come to imagining something new is free college (which is the same what we have now [free high school, college scholarships] but more so) and free daycare (which is like free preschool but younger).
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by mobilefriendly on Thursday April 13, 2017 @10:46AM (#14107375)
You're kind of in a bubble, there is a lot of U.S. government support for open source and most agencies use it. See https://code.gov for a starting point. There's never going to be a huge multi-billion dollar grant program because it is unfair to closed-source companies (who pay taxes) but you are imagining a debate or hangup that doesn't exist.
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by misingnoglic on Thursday April 13, 2017 @11:35AM (#14107862)
Why is it unfair? Those companies presumably charge for their software, and maybe will be incentivised to go open source.
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by paulddraper on Thursday April 13, 2017 @09:39PM (#14112160)
It's unfair because those companies can't extract their required funding at gunpoint.
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by philipkglass on Thursday April 13, 2017 @12:44PM (#14108626)
At some point the falsifiable hypothesis "government cannot provide goods or services better than private actors" mutated into the dogma "government shall not provide goods or services better than private actors."
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by acdha on Thursday April 13, 2017 @07:39AM (#14105952)
Governments do fund some things directly – most commonly grants to specific interests – but one other area which helps is allowing staff to work on open-source projects. At least in the United States civil servants’ work is generally considered public domain so we don't have to deal with the IP concerns which many companies still obsess over, which is nice.

If you poke around https://government.github.com/community you'll find a lot of government created projects but checking those organizations/ contributors will often turn up a ton of forks of popular tools. One common thing is improving security defaults or accessibility, which are tedious but mandatory for government.

If you value this, make sure to let your elected representatives know: I'm sure they hear from the major contractors regularly.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by westoque on Thursday April 13, 2017 @06:05PM (#14111266)
Or companies for that matter. I know other companies that have an open source division like AT&T labs.
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by atemerev on Thursday April 13, 2017 @08:07AM (#14106076)
The question is reversed: open source software _is_ a positive externality, but happened almost always _without_ any government involvement (save for some rare exceptions like SELinux).

This is probably the reason it worked so good.

So, do we necessarily need governments for other positive externalities in the list?

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by azernik on Thursday April 13, 2017 @04:42PM (#14110749)
The comment above mine was mentioning chronic underinvestment; I would say that this indicates the current system doesn't work.
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by mycomian on Thursday April 13, 2017 @10:02AM (#14106949)
It's absolutely not a necessity, but more incentive for writing OSS could be nice.
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by chimeracoder on Thursday April 13, 2017 @09:14AM (#14106525)
> It's a classic "public good" - an economic activity whose benefits are impractical or unworthwhile to deny to those who don't pay.

Open source software is not a public good, in the economic sense. There are two criteria for being a public good: non-rivalry and non-excludability. Open-source software satisfies the first criterion (my using it doesn't prevent you from using it), but it's fairly excludable (I can prevent you from using it legally).

As developers, our instinct might tell us that it's not excludable because "if the source is there, nothing prevents me from using it", but when we're talking about goods which fall under copyright law, the legal aspect matters as well as the practicality. And in fact, open-source licenses (such as the GPL and the Apache licenses) can contain provisions which prevent people from using the licensed software under certain circumstances, while still being considered both free and open-source by the FSF and OSI respectively[0]

The real classic example of a public good is national security. Practically, there is literally no way that national security can be applied to people within a country on an individual basis, as opposed to a geographic one. For most threat models (e.g. espionage, (counter-)terrorism), the mitigations are things like "prevent terrorist attacks from happening". You can't apply the benefits of that only to people who have paid for the service - a terrorist attack either happens or it doesn't, and you can't choose who's a victim of it.

> These are a classic example used by economists of a natural place for government in the economy.

Even for things which are actually public goods, like national security, that's overstating the case greatly. Public goods are used as an example of a good for which an individual market cannot exist, but that doesn't mean that the only alternative is a government one.

The so-called "tragedy of the commons" is an appropriate (and ironic) example - despite the way that most people use the term, the town commons was actually something for which there were plenty of well-established codified rights, and these were not always negotiated or enforced by a government entity.

[0] For example, the Apache license contains a patent retaliation clause, which terminates your right to use the software in the event of a patent lawsuit. (Technically it doesn't revoke your right to the copyrighted code, but it does revoke your right to the underlying patents, which amounts to the same thing, because presumably the copyrighted code utilizes the underlying patents, or else it wouldn't be covered by the license in the first place).

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by azernik on Thursday April 13, 2017 @04:58PM (#14110873)
Non-excludability isn't just about the law; it's about practicality. It might in some system be legal to prevent fire services from putting out fires in houses that haven't paid for it, but that would be an impractical system.

Similarly, critical software intended for developers is impractical to deny to them; doing so has some serious negative effects on the production process (hard to get good feedback/PRs from customers, for example, unless you expose the source to them to a level that closed-source manufacturers find dangerous to their business model).

WRT the original commons, you can make such things work in a tight-knit community that can enforce social norms (which, by the way, would take on a lot of what are now considered "government functions" in a modern society), but in a larger capitalist economy with actors that aren't inside the community, the government is the only actor that has the authority to enforce public ownership of the commons.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by dwaltrip on Thursday April 13, 2017 @02:43PM (#14109774)
Can we get non-excludability by requiring that any OSS produce with public funds have a license that prevents such possibilities​?

I'm imagining a clause like: "this source and any modifications is irrevocably eligible for use by all, provided that its creation did not break any other laws".

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by cookiecaper on Thursday April 13, 2017 @09:14AM (#14106524)
Yeah, I really think that open-source software shot itself in the foot by incorporating unlimited free sharing for every recipient into its mantra. Now everyone thinks that open-source has to mean impoverished, because despite all the happy vibes, very few people will pay for software that they could otherwise get for free.

You can make your software "source available", i.e., not open-source under activist definitions but still have a GitHub repo and all that, and restrict [heavy?] commercial use. I think it'd be interesting to see more open-source devs take that route and stop giving away the farm.

This will still allow people to use your stuff, developers will get familiar with the tooling and expect to be able to use it at work, and companies that have the dough can be compelled to pony up for a license.

On Windows, there is still an underappreciated market for cheap early-90s-shareware-style applications that are < $100 a pop, but I think most of them think that sharing the source means they have to enter the poor house, which is sad. We should show people that there's a way to share your source without bankrupting yourself in the meantime.

The GPL almost gets there, as it makes large-scale commercial use undesirable due to its infectious nature, which allows for dual-licensing, but with everything server-side nowadays, those stipulations are much less effective (have to go AGPL).

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by egeozcan on Thursday April 13, 2017 @12:31PM (#14108486)
There's no shared source license which bans commercial usages but I think the software industry desperately needs one. I'm selling the software and want to enable the user to make modifications for private use and even share those modifications if they so desire = I have to hire a lawyer and hope he comes up with something that stands the test of a trial.

Not giving away something for free (as in freedom) but asking for free legal advice may sound ironic but it's not about the money, it's about having something reliable for a very common use case.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by x0x0 on Thursday April 13, 2017 @07:06PM (#14111543)
That's typically the purpose of AGPL plus a dual license offering for cash. This will probably require copyright assignments to make it work tho
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by alphapapa on Thursday April 13, 2017 @12:55PM (#14108721)
I can't help but think that if the Linux kernel were under a CC-NC-BY-SA-type license, as you suggest, that it would be practically unheard of today.

BTW, please mind the distinction between open-source software and Free Software. You don't have to like the FSF, but the distinction they recognize is important.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by cookiecaper on Thursday April 13, 2017 @01:58PM (#14109368)
>I can't help but think that if the Linux kernel were under a CC-NC-BY-SA-type license, as you suggest, that it would be practically unheard of today.

I don't suggest that the Linux kernel be distributed under non-commercial terms, and I agree with you that such a project wouldn't have done well.

>BTW, please mind the distinction between open-source software and Free Software. You don't have to like the FSF, but the distinction they recognize is important.

Right, so there are 3 levels of "purity" here. For the record, I didn't run afoul of any of them; I intentionally distinguished my suggestion as "source available", not "open-source".

There is "Free Software", which is software meeting Stallman's "Four Freedoms".

There is "Open Source", typically referred to as the improper noun "open-source", which activists insist refers solely to license approved by the OSI (Open Source Initiative). Because these include permissive licenses, the FSF considers them potentially non-free, and makes the point that Open Source isn't good enough; it must be Free Software.

Then there is "source available", insisted upon by the OSI people, to indicate that while you can download and modify the source, it is not distributed under copyright terms they like. This would be source distributed only for non-commercial use, for example. Jef Raskin's Archy project (apparently now dead) [0] was distributed under CC BY-NC-SA and made this distinction.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archy

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by VeejayRampay on Thursday April 13, 2017 @09:57AM (#14106905)
No, companies that make billions of dollars in an ecosystem that benefits from said tools and don't pay a dime for the public good are to blame. It's not a problem with open source, it's a problem with a culture that takes and doesn't give back enough.
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by edoloughlin on Thursday April 13, 2017 @11:31AM (#14107821)
Open source software has to be one of the least efficient markets out there

Does it have to be a market?

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by spiderjerusalem on Thursday April 13, 2017 @05:47PM (#14111165)
Amen. Somehow a lot of comments in this thread are blinded to the fact that the 'commons' are not simply subsumed within the 'market'. The logic of commons is quite orthogonal to that of markets.
Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by sangnoir on Thursday April 13, 2017 @07:05AM (#14105797)
> Open source software has to be one of the least efficient markets out there.

The regular market rules don't really apply to Open source software. A lot of viable (or even thriving) open source projects would be dismal failures as stand-alone businesses or startups. Paradoxically, the only way they can provide real value is in their current form of open source projects.

I would have given CyanogenMod as an example, but the amount of inept management at the startup there would cloud the issue.

Re:PhantomJS: Stepping down as maintainer by 0x445442 on Thursday April 13, 2017 @10:31AM (#14107254)
Hopefully the author will be able to parlay the street cred generated from PhantomJS by selling future employers or customers on the same napkin math.