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Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by gwright on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @11:10PM (#14094432)
Discussion is terribly confused when 'censorship' is interpreted in this general sense. Censorship enforced by the state is something distinctly different from editorial control exercised by private entities. When the single word can represent either concept (and other related concepts) ambiguity and confusion isn't far behind.

I used to argue that 'censorship' should be interpreted as something done by governments and enforced by the legal system but that battle has been lost. Now the unqualified 'censorship' can mean just about any sort of content restrictions and as such is almost useless in its unqualified form.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @12:14AM (#14094704)
> Discussion is terribly confused when 'censorship' is interpreted in this general sense.

It's the original sense.

> Censorship enforced by the state is something distinctly different from editorial control exercised by private entities.

Yes, government censorship is different in important ways than censorship by a publishing or distributing entity, but both are censorship (and they are also similar in important ways.)

> When the single word can represent either concept (and other related concepts) ambiguity and confusion isn't far behind.

Heavy water is different from drinking water in some quite important ways, but its not at all a problem that both are identified with the word "water", because we can use more than one word when the differentiating features are important to the discussion.

> I used to argue that 'censorship' should be interpreted as something done by governments and enforced by the legal system but that battle has been lost.

That battle was lost centuries ago. What the censor librorum does in granting, or denying, the nihil obstat has always been censorship, even where the Catholic Church is not an established Church and so is in now way part of the government.

> Now the unqualified 'censorship' can mean just about any sort of content restrictions and as such is almost useless in its unqualified form.

It has pretty much always meant that, and just because the general sense of censorship is not something you are interested in talking about doesn't mean it's not useful.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by ckastner on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @03:37AM (#14095584)
> It has pretty much always meant that, and just because the general sense of censorship is not something you are interested in talking about doesn't mean it's not useful.

It's certainly less useful than distinguishing between specific forms of censorship. As you concede yourself:

> Yes, government censorship is different in important ways than censorship by a publishing or distributing entity

The context (the article) is clearly about the latter, specific form.

Or, to expand on your example: When discussing an article about nuclear fusion, the distinction between heavy water and drinking water certainly is more useful then the observation that both are identified with the word "water".

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by gwright on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @12:39AM (#14094800)
I'm willing to concede that that 'censorship' has always been an expansive term. Perhaps my perspective is just a personal idiosyncrasy.

But that is really ancillary to my point that in order to communicate clearly about the public policy issues involved it is important to avoid the generic use of the term because that obfuscates the arguments making it harder to explore the issues.

In particular I think that in the US context, 1st Amendment proscriptions regarding freedom of speech and of the press are often implicitly assumed to be reasons why Google, for example, shouldn't be able to have a restrictive editorial policy. The negative aspects of censorship in the 1st Amendment sense are misleadingly attached to censorship in the editorial sense.

Sure it is possible to talk about 'censorship' in the 'general sense' but that is uninteresting to me and I would argue isn't very helpful in understanding the distinct aspects of different types of 'censorship'.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by hueving on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @04:11AM (#14095732)
>The negative aspects of censorship in the 1st Amendment sense are misleadingly attached to censorship in the editorial sense.

The very presence of anti-censorship in the 1st amendment is the reason many people in the US get outraged when companies censor views. They view free speech as a fundamental right, even though the 1st amendment only applies to the government.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @09:03AM (#14097200)
> The very presence of anti-censorship in the 1st amendment is the reason many people in the US get outraged when companies censor views.

No, it's not. The value of free expression and the concept of the marketplace of ideas to which it is essential predates and goes beyond the 1st Amendment. The 1st Amendment isn't the cause, it's a product of the same cause.

Though it's a lot trickier to apply the concept to private censorship, which is both, in one sense, an exercise of the right of free speech and, potentially, a restriction on it in some cases. Government censorship is a lot more of a clear issue (even if there are issues of drawing the precise boundary.)

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by r_smart on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @08:38AM (#14097024)
The first amendment only applies to the government, but it elucidates a natural right all people have, and thus forbids the government from tampering with it. Other people should also not tamper with it, but enforcing that is beyond the scope of the first amendment.

Free speech is a fundamental right, which is why every Western democracy at least pays lip service to the idea.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by blatherard on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @07:21AM (#14096596)
> It's the original sense.

Nope. The original "censors" were Roman magistrates who enforced public morals. They're called censors because they were also responsible for the census. The government part of censorship has been baked in from the very coining of the word.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @08:58AM (#14097157)
> The original "censors" were Roman magistrates who enforced public morals.

That is the original use of the Latin word "censor"; the use of "censor", even in Latin (in part, because Catholic Church), had expanded considerably in the millenium+ between the fall of Rome and the coining of the English word "censorship".

Latin and English are different languages, and "censor" and "censorship" are different words.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by ouid on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @12:04AM (#14094660)
How is it "distinctly different"? The fact that you "lost the battle" to define it rigidly usually means that you couldn't provide a sufficiently compelling argument that it should have been. For instance, if the state, through asymmetric regulation, allows a platform to become a monopoly, and the platform engages in political censorship, then it IS government sponsored.

It's stupid to restrict your definitions by intent. Treat the restriction of information as the problem itself, rather than the fact that it was done with any specific motive.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by gwright on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @12:11AM (#14094686)
It is distinctly different because the government can fine me or imprison me if I violate their legal proscriptions. I can't opt out of those restrictions.

If Google blocks my content or otherwise refuses to host my content I have lots of other options. Your assertion that Google is a monopoly is this regard is not accurate.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by enraged_camel on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @02:35AM (#14095313)
If the government censors you, you have other choices as well. You can publish your content in locations outside your government's jurisdiction.

So basically your "imprisonment" qualification on the definition of censorship is completely arbitrary and does not stand up to critical scrutiny.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by AnOscelot on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @03:33AM (#14095571)
If your government censors you, and you break the censorship in some way, you put your own personal freedom and economic status at risk. In many countries, you put your own life at risk as well.

If Google takes down my video, and I publish it elsewhere, there's no real risk of anything. Maybe I'll lose my Google account if the video was particularly heinous, but that's about as far as it goes.

The imprisonment qualification is a very real difference.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by ouid on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @12:54AM (#14094864)
if my business is forfeit, because it operates on the platform that the government allows to be a monopoly which youtube absolutely is then it serves the same function as a fine, frankly it doesn't matter what my leverage is, as long as it works.

More importantly this doesn't address the concept, which is that it's dumb to attach motive to the definition of a problem. It's important when assessing criminal liability, but if you're just using it as an excuse to ignore the detrimental effects of censorship, which haven't changed, just because the mechanisms have, then you're just being profoundly counterproductive.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by jimmywanger on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @01:02AM (#14094892)
> if my business is forfeit

Forfeit is not the right word. Nobody is taking your business away from you, it's just not a profitable business.

> monopoly which youtube absolutely is

That is begging the question. There are plenty of sites that let you share video like youtube[0]

[0] http://www.freemake.com/blog/top-7-free-video-sharing-sites/

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by ouid on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @01:30AM (#14095021)
This is the same argument as the one against net neutrality. So if you your arguments are convincing to you here, then they should be there.

If you own a platform on which other people do business which is a natural monopoly, you shouldn't be allowed to regulate the content on that platform. Youtube is a natural monopoly. It's fairly obvious that this is so, but I will elaborate anyway.

The value of youtube is the number of people use the site. The number of people on the site encourages people to host their content on that site, more people hosting content on the site encourages more people to use the site. In this situation there will always be exactly one winner.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by keymone on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @05:17AM (#14096020)
monopoly is not about being most popular service, it's about being the only supplier of some commodity or service. youtube is not the only supplier of video publishing service, hence it's not a monopoly. users can switch from youtube to another service easily.

users can't easily (and sometimes at all) switch to a different internet provider, which is why net neutrality is important.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by ouid on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @07:15AM (#14096564)
you clearly have no idea what a monopoly is.
Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by fox8091 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @08:51AM (#14097103)
The dictionary disagrees with you.

http://bfy.tw/BBWT

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by fvdessen on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @09:27AM (#14097419)
The commodity that youtube sells is not only the ability to upload a video, it is the access to a network of viewers. It can be argued that due to youtube's network size relative to other video sharing website, it has a monopoly in that regard.
Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by keymone on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:47AM (#14098161)
i don't agree. plenty of videos are being watched on facebook, instagram, twitter, etc, not to mention all the asian clones.

youtube just seems to be the most monetized platform for the time being, but i don't think it's anywhere near being monopoly in terms of access to users.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by cel1ne on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @03:35AM (#14095578)
> Censorship enforced by the state is something distinctly different from editorial control exercised by private entities.

I use the following analogy for the latter: Would you call it censorship if you decide to remove the graffiti someone spraypainted on your car?

No one has the obligation to provide for unrestricted distribution of opinion/information. Especially not state-financed media, as they have a stake in education of their citizens.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by Ralfp on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @05:23AM (#14096057)
The key difference between your car and YouTube is that YouTube (or Facebook or Twitter) makes part of new media that has reach far enough for commentary published on it to shape public discourse. This is especially big thing within young democracies for which new media is de facto mainstream media.

Our markets are usually regulated to make sure monopolies don't arise, and if they do, they may be forced to downscale, split or open market for competition.

This is not the case with major social media sites, that answer only to the mighty dollar.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by croon on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @07:32AM (#14096650)
I'll try another one.

It's more like you having a potluck, or cook-off, meaning anyone can come and join and contribute food.

But then someone prepares Surströmming, Hákarl or Shiokara, which is technically food (content) that someone might like. It will now smell all over your potluck and have a detrimental effect on peoples view of it. You have previously reserved the right to turn away participants, and you exercise that right.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by mattmanser on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @04:44AM (#14095892)
That's a very bad analogy, you should stop.

The message of the grafitti is not what people care about, it's that it was painted in the first place.

Your analogy only works if you have a big sign outside your house saying "Please paint my car".

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by nafey on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @05:16AM (#14096011)
Don't misconstrue what is being said. Imagine the sign saying "Please paint my car but we reserve the rights to remove anything we want". That's essentially what the YouTube user license says.
Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by mattmanser on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @01:43PM (#14099923)
Graffiti is done without permission. What exactly am I misconstruing? That's exactly why the analogy is so bad.
Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by cel1ne on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:50AM (#14137113)
Many user-licenses forbid things like spreading "hateful" (I actually don't like that word) content. Some users post such content, thereby doing something which they had no permission for. When that content is removed, in compliance with the agreement, they call that censorship.

So my analogy still works.

The difference is that on YouTube some "graffiti" are permitted while others aren't whereas on my car, none are permitted.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by chmackenzie on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @09:34AM (#14097479)
> Censorship is the suppression of free speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions.

YouTube is acting as a media company while pretending to be a platform. They're engaging in censorship since they're removing things on political grounds. Now, if the rules were always "no vegan videos, no violence, only kittens," it would be a different story.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by madeofpalk on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @12:58AM (#14094882)
> editorial control exercised by private entities.

I would agree with you, but Youtube isn't a place where 'editorial' happens. Youtube isn't a TV channel or a blog with a set of editors. It's a free-for-all place for hosting videos. While I have no problem with Youtube removing content they don't like (it's their website, they're free to do what they like), it does go further than exercising 'editorial control'

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @01:02AM (#14094893)
Choosing what you publish on your platform based on your own content preferences is exactly editorial control.
Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by braveo on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @11:46PM (#14094593)
Your point was valid 20-30 years ago, but not anymore. Not when our bubbles are so largely defined by what we see online.

These companies with all the eyeballs are now able to exert an influence on people's lives in a way that companies rarely have been able to do in the past (barring media, which the censorship claim was a bit deal).

So it is that nowadays censorship on something like youtube has become a big deal.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by gwright on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @12:05AM (#14094664)
Who said it wasn't a concern? It is a concern but the nature of the concern is entirely different for editorial control vs. legal proscriptions.

Your response is a nice example of the problem I was pointing out. You are conflating lots of different concerns by assuming that 'censorship' as an unqualified term accurately expresses the particular nuances of the issue you are concerned about.

I'm just arguing for clarity in communication. Acting as if Google's editorial choices and speech codes at private universities and content filters on library computers and government efforts to squelch speech are all adequately summarized by the word "censorship" is harmful to clarity in communication.

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by braveo on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @03:06AM (#14095436)
If there's one thing I definitely don't care about, it's the exact definition of censorship.

What I do care about is the idea behind censorship. I will not engage you in any conversation in which you try to use the definition to argue against the point I made.

So if you would like to have a discussion about the ideas behind censorship and why the worry is valid for these large websites such as FB and Youtube, I'm all for it.

But if you're going to repeat that the definition of the word precludes anything but governments, then I'm not interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFIYKmos3-s&t=3s

Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by Baeocystin on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @09:49AM (#14097606)
Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by Ronsenshi on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @01:49AM (#14095114)
I'm working in media. We call editorial control "self-censorship".
Re:YouTube Advertiser Meltdown: An Opportunity for Startups by mtgx on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @08:38AM (#14097021)
So what do you call it when the governments ask companies like Google and Facebook to "volunteer" (or else) to do censorship - and the companies do exactly that?