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Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by gambiting on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @03:24AM (#14085558)
Really? My experience with contractors(both in and out of gaming industry) is that they do the bare minimum required to keep the contract and still take 5-10x the daily wage of an employee. Employees(in my experience) usually care about the games they make, while contractors couldn't give any less damn about the project they work on, they are happy to switch with a days notice.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by nvarsj on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @04:08AM (#14085753)
It's a mixed bag. Many very talented engineers become contractors because they get sick of low pay, company politics, and the fact they get treated like a cog. So instead they embrace the cog concept and get paid well at the same time. These contractors will tend to care and do a really great job. On the other hand, you have the scabs that become contractors soley because it pays well - and also because generally it's easier to get hired as a contractor (less strict hiring process since it is a fixed contract length). That kind of person gives contractors a bad name. I've seen some of the worst and some of the best developers as contractors.

This is even more pronounced in the UK where permanent employee pay is very low, compared to contractor pay. Generally the best engineers all end up becoming either contractors or go into finance where they can get paid well. And unfortunately the engineers who could never get employed as a perm employee also become contractors.

Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by testloop on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @08:17AM (#14086955)
I agree... but, your reputation matters. In this city (Manchester), everyone talks. You won't last long as contractor if you're rubbish.

And even if you managed to get in somewhere I imagine you'd be found out and binned pretty quickly.

Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by nvarsj on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @10:38AM (#14088186)
In London at least, my impression is the demand is so great that many places are desperate enough to hire anyone with x years of tech (usually Java) on their CV, with usually just a screening by a non technical manager. It could be this is changing though, especially with increased supply after the recent IR35 changes in the public sector. And usually, these are not the kind of places good contractors want to work anyways.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by s73ver on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @04:00PM (#14091869)
I don't think most people are suggesting that these former employees turned contractors would be rubbish. Just that they aren't willing to put up with the BS of "going the extra mile" or whatever without being paid for it.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by org3432 on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @03:34AM (#14085596)
I've never seen contractors care less, there can be issues of not understanding the context which can affect their work or people's perception, and certainly employees can feel insecure with contractors. But the reality is that the game wouldn't ship without them, that's why they're there.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by dawidw on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @03:32AM (#14085587)
So why do employers pay 5-10x for contractors?
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by gambiting on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @03:41AM (#14085625)
Because they can be hired and fired at will, while an employee(at least where I work) has to be given at least 3 months notice, a severance package mandated by law, and they can sue for unfair dismissal. Plus you have to pay healthcare, pension fund and other benefits, plus they are entitled to 25 days of paid holiday a year plus unlimited paid sick leave. And finally, it's hard to find someone willing to become an employee for just 3-6 months required to finish a product. That's where contractors come in - they are much quicker to hire, they are much quicker to let go, and healtcare,pension, holidays is their responsibility. So to companies they can be worth the 5-10x what they would pay an employee for the same amount of work.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by dawidw on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @04:00AM (#14085715)
I'm not sure about that 3-6 months contracts. I know few contractors and they've been working couple of years for the same position. So I'm not sure how this model can be beneficial for company. To make the picture more unclear, those contractors wouldn't like to switch to permanent position!
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by gambiting on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @04:05AM (#14085735)
Well at least in the UK if you are a contractor I would say it's typical to take 500-600 pounds a day. Plus if you are self employed you can expense a lot of things that you can't as a regular employee - petrol, part of mortgage/rent, computer for work etc etc etc. Sure, you have to do your own taxes and pay your own national insurance, but overall you can be taking a lot more money home than an employee, so it's no surprise to me that people like being contractors and wouldn't convert to employees even if they were offered a permanent position.

edit: "typical" for a mid-to-senior level programmer contractor. A "contractor" doing QC in games will not take anywhere near as much.

Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by osullivj on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @04:12AM (#14085764)
500-600 is a typical London rate. Outside London 300-400 is more likely.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by jamiethompson on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @05:58AM (#14086252)
That's still at least 2x the take-home on even the highest paying permanent roles outside of London.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by osullivj on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @06:13AM (#14086320)
Bear in mind that permie roles usually include pension, private healthcare, sick pay & holiday allowance. So the total comp from the permie role goes beyond the take home.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by mattmanser on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @09:53AM (#14087733)
45 weeks * 5 days * £300 = £67,500

Outside London as a senior dev you might expect £45k full-time + pension + benefits.

So definitely not at least 2x.

45 weeks is kinda the rule of thumb of contractors, as you don't get paid hols or sick days.

Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by jamiethompson on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @10:04AM (#14087828)
That's true. But 45 weeks * 5 days * £400 = £90,000
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by user5994461 on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @08:18AM (#14086964)
500 * 200 days = 100k of income.

100k is definitely not twice what you get as a permie in London.

Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by jamiethompson on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @09:08AM (#14087328)
No, I said it's twice what you'd get outside of London.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by user5994461 on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @10:09AM (#14087873)
Well, the 500 is consulting rate for inside London. The comparison doesn't stand then.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by jamiethompson on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @11:07AM (#14088541)
No, it's £300-400 per day outside London. Which at the top end is literally twice a permanent salary of £45k
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by test1235 on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @06:05AM (#14086285)
As an average web dev, I've seen £350~£400 in London
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by osullivj on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @06:11AM (#14086310)
I've long worked in banking, so the 500-600 I look for with London roles assumes trading systems knowledge. So I agree, outside banking rates will be lower. FYR I'm currently working a six month C++ Windows MFC gig in Gloucestershire at 365/day. I'll be heading back into London at the end of May though...
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by wdb on Friday April 14, 2017 @04:12PM (#14116906)
Got offered a Delphi contractor role last week for £800/day but required travelling and fixed deadline.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by reallydontask on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @03:41AM (#14085624)
I can't speak about gaming but for more general contracting the multiplier is 1.75 - 2.5x of a normal employee's salary

There are a lot of reasons why employers hire contractors, some more valid than others.

In my limited experience, it's rarely worth it, mostly because the relevant processes are never in place to ensure that loads of knowledge doesn't walk away with the contractor at the end of the contract

edit:

Should clarify that I'm in the UK.

Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by dawidw on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @03:49AM (#14085663)
"There are a lot of reasons why employers hire contractors, some more valid than others."

Could you elaborate on that, please? Thanks in advance!

Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by Jonnax on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @03:58AM (#14085703)
Off the top of my head I know that contractors don't get benefits such as holidays, pensions and other employee benefits.

Their contracts have an expiration so they're easier to get rid of on short notice.

Also they are treated as capital expenditure versus operational expenditure. And I believe that you can do some accounting that is beneficial tax wise to a company.

This is a UK perspective.

Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by hnal943 on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @09:58AM (#14087777)
Yep, those are the reasons in the US also.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by liveoneggs on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @11:25PM (#14094487)
One that isn't mentioned much is avoiding corporate overhead costs, which I found interesting when I learned about it.

Basically some big companies charge their divisions fees for upkeep of facilities, paying the finance team salaries, etc based on the number of employees in the division.

So if you can have ten employees you are only on the hook for $1M/year in corp fees even though you actually have three "consultants" sharing desks with every employee for years-at-a-time. If you added the consultants to the employee roles then you would become a 50 person division, owing $5M/year to the home office.

---

The CAPEX vs OPEX thing is a big driver too, of course, but there are definitely ways to classify employees, at least partially, as capex.

It's why you can make an exempt employee fill out a timesheet to charge back projects which you have put into the capex group.

A few jobs ago my group was told to find 80% capex or find new jobs. Most fridays were spent negotiating with project managers in tasks-for-hours swaps.

Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by reallydontask on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @04:00AM (#14085714)
On demand labour

On demand skills

higher skillset

misallocation of internal resources

internal politics

hanging on to yearly budgets

I could probably think of a few more

Some of the above are perceived by PHBs types as there is always a finite pool of people with the skillset that is needed for the job at the skill level required etc...

Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by org3432 on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @03:53AM (#14085680)
Many reasons, at big companies employees require a lot of red tape so it's a way around it, you may need a specific skill set for a short period of time, or just a large volume of work to get done at peak. If they're good, the person may not want to be an employee, I see that all the time.
Re:In the Videogame Industry, Hiring People Is a Last Resort by optimuspaul on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @09:23AM (#14087453)
I think that 5-10x is rare, but 2-3x is common. The reasoning is that the actual cost of an employee is 3-5x their actual pay. There is insurance, taxes, more insurance, benefits, workspace (which some contractors will need as well), office supplies, computer, etc. All that adds up.