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Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by Entangled on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @07:54PM (#14038410)
Dermatology, eye conditions, blood cells, tissue, viruses, urine, saliva, everything that can allow an app to give you a first diagnose before heading to the doctor.

I foresee in less than ten years we will have a doctor in our pockets. No, it won't cure us and it won't replace a doctor, but it will give us all the information we need to have a 99% certainty of our condition.

--

Second batch for animals and their conditions.

Third batch, agriculture. Take a pic of a plant and tell me all the info, fertilizers, cultivation, etc, bonus for pest id and treatment.

Pocket computers should be able to diagnose every living creature.

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by fratlas on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @08:44PM (#14038690)
While I think it'll happen eventually, medicine is not at all black and white.

Anecdotal, but I had a suspicious mole looked at, the doctor couldn't decide, got a second opinion from their colleague, he still was only 90% sure. And that's a relatively simple example. Doctors are some of the smartest/hard working people in society, and if they can still make mistakes, medical-grade AI is a long way off.

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by iheartmemcache on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @11:02AM (#14042571)
I'm with you, but moles in particular are pretty difficult to identify, especially on a first visit. (One of the 5 major criteria for a melanoma diagnosis is "evolving" which, by definition, requires more than one visit to identify.) Then you have complexities like basal or squamous cell carcinomas, UV induced AK, etc.

The benefit of medical-grade "AI" (in particular, multi-layered convolution neural networks) is that, given an aggregate of information (say, if you equipped every derm and oncologist with high resolution cameras and a set of parameters to standardize each datum), a trained professional[1] would be able to use that corpus as a very useful resource (used, obviously, in conjunction with their formal training and years of medical experience).

That being said - this is a question you should really be asking those who practice medicine or are actively in research for a living. Go pick up the last years issues of Nature Methods to see what problems they're encountering, and which technological gaps[2] (if any) they may have where YC AI might be applicable.

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[1] Needless to say, this is something I'd be very reluctant to release into the populace's hands, lest you have someone whip together some node.js backend and React iOS app :: "Do I have Skin Cancer? $10 to find out!". One shudders to think what sort of hysteria might follow.

[2] You would be surprised at how technologically adept some of the members of those research teams are -- within a month of DeepMind making the headlines on our tech blogosphere, I was seeing RNN being applied to their industry.

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by fratlas on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @08:48PM (#14047032)
I agree, moles are a special case, and they are hard to diagnose with 100% certainty.

I've had this discussion with my SO (who is a doctor) many times, she strongly believes the breadth+depth of knowledge required for such an AI would be too great, but perhaps as a tool for GPs, or for specific, easy ailments (i.e. telling a patient what they don't have, and if it's serious enough to raise the issue to an actual doctor).

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by staticmalloc on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @12:43AM (#14039709)
"Medical-grade AI" has been possible for some diagnosing tasks since 1968. A simple linear model that takes in some features from an X-ray was able to outperform the best doctor in one study: https://goo.gl/yMP7sU
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by brut on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @12:14AM (#14039598)
I think you will see much less "disagreement" between AIs than between doctors. I.e., subjectivity of diagnosis can be much more easily accounted for in an algorithm than in a person...
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by adrianN on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @10:47AM (#14042437)
If you train all of them on the same data, you will get similar answers. That doesn't mean that those answers will be more right than a less sure doctor.
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by brut on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:33PM (#14044412)
Indeed. However this post is a "request for data" and I assume the algorithms of the future will be trained adequately :)
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by adrianN on Thursday April 06, 2017 @01:20AM (#14048128)
I suppose all algorithms will be trained on all available data, making the results pretty similar.
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by surgeryres on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @08:03PM (#14038464)
One potential problem with this - the question of liability, and who is responsible for diagnostic accuracy? In this case, for some "Lab on a Chip" device providing a patient directly with diagnostic information without the vetting of a human doctor, liability would sit with the company.

IBM's Watson at MD Anderson Cancer center did not work out real well for them. In other words, using AI in the realm of medical diagnostics is very difficult.

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by mitchellst on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @11:01AM (#14042559)
What about the treatment side? Once you have a diagnosis, could we use AI to review the patient's medical record, compare outcomes of past patients with the same diagnosis and similar histories, and suggest adjustments of personalized treatments to optimize outcomes?

Overall, of course, you're right. Liability is the problem with my suggestion. Doctors prescribe to treat, they also prescribe to meet the legally mandated standard of care and minimize second-guessing later. Looking at each patient as a unique snowflake-- or at least, part of a thinner-sliced group-- helps with the first, but directly undercuts the second goal. Such an approach would probably need to originate outside the U.S.

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by surgeryres on Thursday April 06, 2017 @10:55AM (#14051054)
Fair points.

Extracting data from the EMR is very difficult because all EMR was originally intended to only be a storage place for data - not designed to output data back to a user.

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by thedailymail on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @12:15AM (#14039600)
I agree that the current excitement over medical AI seems wildly optimistic, but the problems with Watson at MD Anderson were more due to gross mismanagement on the MD Anderson side. https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/ibms-watson-proves-u...
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by BigJono on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @12:18AM (#14039606)
This seems like an easy question to answer. The liability lies with the user until they seek the professional advice of a doctor.

Say a user decides to self-diagnose and damages themselves (either through inaction or self-medication or whatever). What difference does it make whether they diagnosed themselves by browsing symptoms on wikipedia or using an advanced diagnosis AI on their phone?

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by PeterisP on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @09:35AM (#14041957)
It's plausible that providing an advanced diagnosis AI on the phone (unlike purely passive information e.g. wikipedia) falls under existing laws that regulate medical services, and would make the provider liable for violating these regulations even if noone has damaged themselves yet.
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by ska on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @11:23AM (#14042757)
Watson at MDACC isn't a good example, it's not the technology that the (main) problem.
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by pragone on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @07:31AM (#14041285)
> everything that can allow an app to give you a first diagnose before heading to the doctor.

Why do you want to have the diagnosis before seeing a physician? (I'm legitimately interested in the answer.)

In my experience, it's about 50-50 with helping versus hurting making the correct diagnosis and providing accurate treatment.

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by mitchellst on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @10:54AM (#14042500)
Maybe the fact that you know your diagnosis is not the important part. If the app can verify the diagnostic data is accurate (e.g., temperature, AI image recognition of visible indicators like rashes and pupil dilation, audio analysis of heartbeat and breathing) then it can save the provider time taking these metrics in the office. Case notes are full of "subjective temp" vs "objective temp," meaning, "what the patient reported" and "what I measured on the visit." Successfully removing this distinction would be difficult, but would save provider time and paperwork. All this info could be sent directly to the doctor for diagnosis. (Possibly with AI giving a suggestion?)
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by robbiemitchell on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @08:13AM (#14041475)
Seeing a doctor can be expensive and inconvenient (another form of expensive).
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by tyfon on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @09:02AM (#14041751)
I can understand inconvenient, but expensive?

Even in the US where you actually have to pay for medical stuff, it can't be more than $10 or so for a quick consultation?

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by xapata on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @10:51AM (#14042472)
Not everyone has that kind of insurance.

You also have no idea of the cost of various diagnostic actions they might take. I once had blood drawn and got charged $600 for it because the lab they chose was out of network. I didn't even know there was a cost, let alone which labs to request.

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by huehehue on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @11:13AM (#14042681)
$150 to have a nurse put a popsicle stick on my tongue and tell me that my throat infection would probably go away on its own.
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by Lordarminius on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @03:19PM (#14044752)
> $150 to have a nurse put a popsicle stick on my tongue and tell me that my throat infection would probably go away on its own.

Or you could see it this way :

$150 to have a nurse put a popsicle stick on your tongue and tell you that you are very lucky to have presented today because you have a suspicious growth - which on examination turns out to be a rare form of cancer that is easily cured if detected early, but most certainly fatal otherwise

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by Anderkent on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @09:19AM (#14041851)
Depends on whether you count opportunity costs under 'inconvenient' or 'expensive', I guess. If you have to take time off work to travel to a doctor, wait for an appointment, etc, that's all costs.
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by mustacheemperor on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @11:46AM (#14042946)
>it can't be more than $10 or so for a quick consultation

It's times like this I realize just how different the rest of the world is.

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by jmmcd on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @10:14AM (#14042202)
Dunno about the US, but in Ireland it is EUR60 for a 10-minute GP visit.
Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by amelius on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @05:56AM (#14040932)
> Second batch for animals and their conditions.

We can learn a lot from animals, and clearly the data should not be protected as much as for humans. Therefore, I'm wondering, where is all the animal data? Could we already start to build models using that data? This could be useful for researching conditions that are more difficult to get data for in the case of humans.

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by rbobby on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:46AM (#14040233)
> to have a 99% certainty of our condition

That seems way high. Correct diagnosis by doctors isn't 99%, or even close.

Re:Ask HN: What medical datasets do you need? by wapz on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:57AM (#14040282)
Yup. I think it can give you a 99% certainty what condition you don't have, but not what you have. Especially not without physical recognition.