Re:4-Day Fast
by jimmies on Saturday April 01, 2017 @11:47PM
(#14015655)
The whole amino-acids thing that the author talked about made me cringe a little bit. "Amino-acids" is just basically the fancy word for "proteins" (I know there are amino-acids that aren't proteins, but let's not be nitpicking here) and in turns, "proteins" is just another fancy word for "shit we eat everyday." It doesn't matter that much what form it is (meat, plants, milk, powder), when digested in your body, it's proteins. Proteins give your body energy. Proteins are not some magical alternative shit to your food, it's actually food.
"Oh I don't eat, but I '''take in''' amino-acids" is like saying "Oh I don't drink, but '''take in''' dihydrogen monoxide."
Re:4-Day Fast
by qume on Saturday April 01, 2017 @11:51PM
(#14015668)
Haha bingo exactly what I was thinking:
>so I decided to take intra-workout amino acids
otherwise known as 'food'
Joking aside though totally supportive of this guys approach and all the best to him. I've recently gone whole food plant based, and definitely interested in introducing fasting too.
Re:4-Day Fast
by flountown on Sunday April 02, 2017 @12:00AM
(#14015701)
I don't know why the author used that example. The point of fasting is nutritional ketosis and Jobs was known as a fruitarian for a large chunk of his life which is at direct odds with ketosis. Fasting does have some beneficial outcomes for cancer patients: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fasting-might-boo...
The best source of fasting benefits I've found is Dr. Dom D'Agostino. He's a huge proponent of occasional fasts and the ketogenic diet.
Re:4-Day Fast
by qume on Saturday April 01, 2017 @11:57PM
(#14015693)
It's sad so many people put in all the effort of a vegan diet, then end up with worse health outcomes.
On the other hand, a vegan diet based on whole foods, not processed like oils and flours, and avoiding too much omega-6 oil and sugar has an astonishing range of health benefits.
I'm surprised this site hasn't been posted / discussed on HN before:
There are health benefits to many diets. That doesn't always outweigh the harm.
Historically, we can trace our brain development alongside evidence of the use of fire. I would never use the raw-food diet because science tells me it's not adequate. Regardless, it may have health benefits.
While adult life expectancy has increased somewhat thanks to sanitation and antibiotics, there has never been a time when adult life expectancy was a mere 35 years.
Re:4-Day Fast
by influx on Sunday April 02, 2017 @12:11AM
(#14015736)
Steve had the only form that was treatable and didn't treat it until it was too late.
"In spite of pleas from family and friends, he tried to cure himself through acupuncture sessions, drinking special fruit juices, visiting "spiritualists" and using other treatments he found on the internet.
Some cancer experts have said that Mr Jobs may have extended his life or even survived if he had promptly tackled his cancer aggressively with scientifically proven medical treatments."
Steve Jobs had a relatively rare pancreatic neuroendocrine tumor which is more receptive to treatment than other pancreatic cancers. And then instead of treating it he went on a diet.
Re:4-Day Fast
by rexpop on Saturday April 01, 2017 @11:52PM
(#14015670)
I fast for three days before I travel. I've done so since reading[0] that it might strengthen the immune response, and I loathe illness while traveling.
Frankly, I am just happy to see HN talking about diet and health. My my inclination is to believe any medication or therapy must either overcome my diet or support it. I can think of nothing with a bigger impact on our physiochemistry.
Re:4-Day Fast
by rsync on Sunday April 02, 2017 @12:41AM
(#14015815)
Can we contrast fasting like the op is describing (with coconut milk, protein supplements and bone broth) vs. fasting with literally zero calories ?
If you're pursuing "weight loss" or fat loss or general fitness/wellness/lightness, I think any form of fasting is useful and interesting.
However, it seems to me that if you are optimizing for starving cancer cells, forcing weak cells into apoptosis, depleting your sugar stores, resetting insulin resistance, etc. ... that is to say, if you're pursuing the more interesting, second order benefits of fasting - you really should be doing the zero calorie kind.
I do a 24 hour fast once weekly with just (black) coffee and water ... I guess I cannot speak to how difficult zero calories would be for 2-4 days ...
> I guess I cannot speak to how difficult zero calories would be for 2-4 days
I can, it's not difficult at all. I've done 7 days, no multivitamins or supplements of any kind. I did allow myself two espresso shots over lunch, but I can't image that counts much towards caloric intake.
Consuming anything else than water will actually break the fast. Yes that includes black coffee.
People who "fast" while consuming coffee, broth, exogenous ketones, and other caloric substances still experience the benefits from caloric restriction. Still not actually fasting though.
Re:4-Day Fast
by rsync on Sunday April 02, 2017 @10:44PM
(#14020276)
"People who "fast" while consuming coffee, broth, exogenous ketones, and other caloric substances still experience the benefits from caloric restriction. Still not actually fasting though."
If the coffee is black it has zero calories and is identical (in terms of caloric restriction) to tea or water ... so I don't think it belongs in the same group as broth ...
Well, I lost 6.7 pounds and 1.9% body fat during my 4-day fast.
How much of that went back on again shortly afterwards, though? I have sometimes lost several pounds very quickly as a result of dehydration, but this is generally not healthy and the loss is temporary. I've sometimes been sick and not had much of an appetite, resulting in staying in bed for several days and hardly eating anything. Again, I lost several pounds, but even with a modest and very healthy food intake for the next few days, much of the weight then went back on again as my body recovered.
Re:4-Day Fast
by pdimitar on Sunday April 02, 2017 @01:49PM
(#14018140)
That is the really important question here. I wish the author would answer you.
I believe fasting has long-term health benefits but I am not at all sure it can actually help with regular weight loss and general health re-balancing.
Rather than focusing on intermittent fasting(and other fads), I believe people should focus on adoption of healthy lifestyle long term. Nothing can replace a lifestyle of right diet and moderate exercise.
I enjoy reading stories about people fasting. Someday I may try it myself, but I know I tend toward a sort of sensory disconnect, so I'm biased toward such hyperbolic stuff. I wish I could be more like some of my friends who are more balanced in their routine; fasting is foreign to them, but they are naturally fit and kind of Zen in their own way. They can just do "normal" very well and no experiments seem necessary.
Well, anatomically modern humans evolved around discontinuous food availability, so fasting may play a more important role than we think in our metabolism.
For example insulin and the growth hormones interact, and being well fed can have counter-intuitive consequences.
e.g: Overfeeding kids might be counterproductive for their growth.
Re:4-Day Fast
by pizza on Saturday April 01, 2017 @11:53PM
(#14015674)
It's the exogenous ketones bit that I'm interested in. Dr Richard Veech has had some interesting publications out on dextro-betahydroxybutyrate [0]. In short, d-bhb is like an entirely separate macronutrient (not fat/carb/protein/alcohol) that is readily metabolizable and has higher thermodynamic efficiency- this translates to lower-metabolic damage post brain trauma, much better underwater breath holding times, something like a couple % power output increase for athletes, etc.
Thing is, the d-bhb production process is really expensive, and it's also pretty unpalatable (and needs to be eaten en masse).
Re:4-Day Fast
by kyriakos on Sunday April 02, 2017 @01:03AM
(#14015881)
Anecdotal but I noticed that when I travel abroad for over a week I always lose some weight (enough to be considered weight loss and stay for a while). Even if I feel like I make unhealthier choices during my trip. Is it possible that a change of diet habits has the similar effects and essentially all we need is constantly changing routine?
Re:4-Day Fast
by omar3550 on Sunday April 02, 2017 @12:17AM
(#14015750)
Hey Guy! Just read your post. Can you tell me whether Ketones/amino acid supplements are supposed to prevent you from your muscles breaking down? I am losing crazy muscle (lost like 20+ pounds in 4 months) and would love a solution to prevent it from happening.
beta-hydroxybutarate, a ketone, is the primary energy source while in a fasted state, and is analogous to glucose in use by organs. It directly provides energy to the brain and the heart.
->"The biggest thing that this fast has taught me is just how much I eat out of habit or boredom instead of actual hunger."
.
For some people(like me) it takes only a bit of education and careful diet plan to realise this. For the author it took a 4-day fasting.
Re:4-Day Fast
by soared on Saturday April 01, 2017 @11:29PM
(#14015596)
Kind of odd how the author reads into his sugar free gum and and ketosis so deeply but didn't say anything about missing two regular workouts and losing so much weight.
The weight loss is completely normal and expected. A lot of the weight came from water bound up in the starch reserves, it'll come right back after eating carbs for a few days. Similar weight "loss" would be seen transitioning into a diet with <100g carbs per day but with normal, or even excessive caloric intake.
"Oh I don't eat, but I '''take in''' amino-acids" is like saying "Oh I don't drink, but '''take in''' dihydrogen monoxide."
>so I decided to take intra-workout amino acids
otherwise known as 'food'
Joking aside though totally supportive of this guys approach and all the best to him. I've recently gone whole food plant based, and definitely interested in introducing fasting too.
He also died of cancer at a fairly young age after trying to treat it with diet instead of medical treatment. Probably not the best health role model.
The best source of fasting benefits I've found is Dr. Dom D'Agostino. He's a huge proponent of occasional fasts and the ketogenic diet.
On the other hand, a vegan diet based on whole foods, not processed like oils and flours, and avoiding too much omega-6 oil and sugar has an astonishing range of health benefits.
I'm surprised this site hasn't been posted / discussed on HN before:
http://nutritionfacts.org
Historically, we can trace our brain development alongside evidence of the use of fire. I would never use the raw-food diet because science tells me it's not adequate. Regardless, it may have health benefits.
Child mortality pulls down the average:
http://www.livescience.com/10569-human-lifespans-constant-2-...
While adult life expectancy has increased somewhat thanks to sanitation and antibiotics, there has never been a time when adult life expectancy was a mere 35 years.
"In spite of pleas from family and friends, he tried to cure himself through acupuncture sessions, drinking special fruit juices, visiting "spiritualists" and using other treatments he found on the internet.
Some cancer experts have said that Mr Jobs may have extended his life or even survived if he had promptly tackled his cancer aggressively with scientifically proven medical treatments."
Frankly, I am just happy to see HN talking about diet and health. My my inclination is to believe any medication or therapy must either overcome my diet or support it. I can think of nothing with a bigger impact on our physiochemistry.
0. https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regene...
If you're pursuing "weight loss" or fat loss or general fitness/wellness/lightness, I think any form of fasting is useful and interesting.
However, it seems to me that if you are optimizing for starving cancer cells, forcing weak cells into apoptosis, depleting your sugar stores, resetting insulin resistance, etc. ... that is to say, if you're pursuing the more interesting, second order benefits of fasting - you really should be doing the zero calorie kind.
I do a 24 hour fast once weekly with just (black) coffee and water ... I guess I cannot speak to how difficult zero calories would be for 2-4 days ...
I can, it's not difficult at all. I've done 7 days, no multivitamins or supplements of any kind. I did allow myself two espresso shots over lunch, but I can't image that counts much towards caloric intake.
People who "fast" while consuming coffee, broth, exogenous ketones, and other caloric substances still experience the benefits from caloric restriction. Still not actually fasting though.
If the coffee is black it has zero calories and is identical (in terms of caloric restriction) to tea or water ... so I don't think it belongs in the same group as broth ...
How much of that went back on again shortly afterwards, though? I have sometimes lost several pounds very quickly as a result of dehydration, but this is generally not healthy and the loss is temporary. I've sometimes been sick and not had much of an appetite, resulting in staying in bed for several days and hardly eating anything. Again, I lost several pounds, but even with a modest and very healthy food intake for the next few days, much of the weight then went back on again as my body recovered.
I believe fasting has long-term health benefits but I am not at all sure it can actually help with regular weight loss and general health re-balancing.
For example insulin and the growth hormones interact, and being well fed can have counter-intuitive consequences.
e.g: Overfeeding kids might be counterproductive for their growth.
Thing is, the d-bhb production process is really expensive, and it's also pretty unpalatable (and needs to be eaten en masse).
[0] http://drveech.com/
Let them take it up and discover the benefits themselves.
Ketones aren't a fuel, they are byproduct of burning fatty acids.
As an analogy, Ketones aren't wood (fuel), they are ashes (byproduct).
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-Hydroxybutyric_acid
http://www.webmd.com/diet/a-z/detox-diets
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/dec/05/detox-m...