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Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by Retric on Friday March 31, 2017 @10:28AM (#14004122)
Latency is limited by the speed of electricity which is a large fraction of the speed of light, so unless you move DDR closer to the CPU it physically can't get 2x as fast... ever. light speed * 0.951 (electricity) / 2 (round trip) / 2 feet (CPU to furthest RAM chip along a wire) ~= 250 million cycles per second.

However, cache is now huge. So, it's latency is usually less of an issue than sequential reads/writes and total size.

Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by ajross on Friday March 31, 2017 @12:42PM (#14005548)
Out of curiosity, why did you ballpark the length of the wire to "2 feet" (close to an order of magnitude high, way under 1 digit of precision) but specify the wave propagation speed along that wire to one part in a thousand (way more precision than appropriate: line capacitance changes significantly with trace width, pcb thickness to ground plane, pcb composition, etc...)?

You're point isn't invalid but it's sort of misapplied. In fact the latency of DRAM on modern systems is dominated almost entirely by precharge time within the memory IC, which is about an order of magnitude slower than signal propagation. And it's not changing, either. DRAM cycles have been sitting at around 60 MHz for a decade and a half. We're dropping voltage as we shrink the cells, and so there's no net increase. Realistically signal propagation will never be the limit.

Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by Retric on Friday March 31, 2017 @01:07PM (#14005798)
I very much rounded the output to represent minimal accuracy and while 9.51 e-1 is not accurate to 3 digits 1 digits of accuracy * 1 digits of accuracy = less than 1 digits of accuracy.

Anyway, if you actually trace the furthest bit of a ram chip to the CPU it's a longer path than you might think > 1 foot but < 3 feet.

As to my point tCL is a round trip latency and actually not that far from optimal. DDR is not designed for pure random access so much as cheap access to lot's of ram so yes there are many trade offs, but they are more reasonable when your close to hard limits.

Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by gatsby99 on Friday March 31, 2017 @02:15PM (#14006447)
Best practice is to have traces less than 3"
Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by Retric on Friday March 31, 2017 @02:46PM (#14006825)
Traces only go from CPU pin to Module, latency includes from memory controller CPU pin, CPU pin to PCB, PCB to module, module to RAM chip edge, ram chip edge to actual memory location.

Here is a picture, from the center of the CPU, to the bottom edge of the furthest part of the DIM then up. http://harddiskdirect.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/imag...

PS: A DIMM is just over 5 inches wide and 0.7 inches tall so if was centered physically on top of a CPU that's 3 inches right there.

Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by gatsby99 on Friday March 31, 2017 @02:57PM (#14006982)
You don't know what you are talking about. Memory controllers are typically onchip.
Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by koverstreet on Saturday April 01, 2017 @01:44AM (#14010680)
"You don't know what you are talking about" is not a great response to someone who's writing more substantive posts than you.
Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by Retric on Friday March 31, 2017 @03:18PM (#14007194)
If by on chip you mean on CPU I agree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_controller

But, that's part of the CPU packaging, a signal needs to get to these pins on the bottom of the CPU and that takes time.

Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by jjoonathan on Friday March 31, 2017 @11:02AM (#14004478)
I keep hearing this, but it doesn't jibe with the RAM timings I see. tRAS is usually 50ns or so, and propagation delay is 2ns or so (see below). What gives?

My suspicion is that amplifying the differential voltages produced by femtocoulombs of charge at 100% reliability is a harder problem than moving the DRAM chips closer to the CPU, and that speed-of-light has gotten the blame in "pop architecture" due to sloppy overgeneralization.

    2*2 feet is long for a memory bus, but it's partially cancelled
    out by the high velocity factor (sorry, "speed of electricity")
    of 0.951 in parent's calculations. Instead, I'm going with 0.5*2
    feet at a velocity factor of 0.5 for a 2ns roundtrip propagation delay.
Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by dfox on Friday March 31, 2017 @12:37PM (#14005495)
Major factor in DRAM latency is in moving these charges around the chip (between the array and sense amplifiers). The wires in the array have some finite conductivity and current handling capability thus this cannot happen instantenuosly.

On the other hand sequential access bandwith is limited almost entirely by the external interface and has more to with economical factors (pin count is major part of IC price) than any physical limitations.

Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by Retric on Friday March 31, 2017 @11:10AM (#14004576)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAS_latency

First word latency: DDR3 SDRAM 6.37ns = 1/156,985,871 of a second.

Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by jjoonathan on Friday March 31, 2017 @11:11AM (#14004587)
tCL is (very) roughly the RAM equivalent of sequential access time. I'm talking random access time, tRAS, which includes closing the last row (precharging the diff amps) and opening the next (waiting for the amps to stabilize). It's called Random Access Memory, so I think it's more fair to judge it by its random access time.
Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by Retric on Friday March 31, 2017 @12:20PM (#14005294)
tCL is very much a round trip latency not just sequential access. If you want sequential access 4 times you can pay for tCL once. https://www.altera.com/ja_JP/pdfs/literature/hb/external-mem...

DDR is not really setup for random access, because it's setup for talking to L2/L3 cache not registers. tRAS ~= tCL + tRCD + tRP which kind of but not exactly exactly what you want for random access.

Re:DDR5 memory is on its way, twice as fast as DDR4 by jjoonathan on Friday March 31, 2017 @08:51PM (#14009680)
Yes, tCL is a round trip time for accessing an already open row, and it puts a sharp upper bound of ~5ns on propagation delay. Random access time, approximated by tRAS, is still ~50ns. You contend that tCL is the bigger problem, I contend that tRAS is the bigger problem. The key statistic is <#CAS/#RAS>, which I haven't been able to find easy values for.

I don't understand your argument that the L2 and L3 caches tip the balance in favor of <#CAS>. If anything, I'd expect them to do the opposite, because the SRAM and DRAM both aim to exploit locality, meaning that better L2 and L3 caches would reduce #CAS faster than #RAS. Of course, armchair reasoning about such complex systems as memory controllers and caches can only go so far, so I wouldn't be shocked to be wrong, but I would certainly demand actual statistics before changing my view.