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Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by dmix on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @11:10AM (#13811497)
There also still hasn't been any public evidence that Wikileaks got their Podesta email data from Russians yet. So far we only know the DNC leaks were very likely Russian. That means until today only about ~50% of the 'election hacks' have been attributed to Russia with public evidence.

Now this leak calls into question some of the evidence about the DNC hack [1]. This evidence being the malware was Russian. But there were many other pieces of evidence that pointed to Russia so I'm personally not anymore persuaded it wasn't Russia for the DNC stuff. The Podesta stuff is still up in the air AFAIK. [edit: see pvg reply]

Either way this leak will just add to the deniability angle for the partisan hawks. Although this is probably way over the head of CNN/Fox News crowd so it's also possible it will have zero effect.

[1] Previous leaks mentioned NSA/Five Eyes collected foreign malware. This leaks adds CIA to that group and further solidifies the "misdirected attribution" angle.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by sparkling on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @11:45AM (#13811866)
There is no hard evidence where the DNC/Podesta leaks came from. However, Julian Assange has repeatedly said that the source is not the russian goverment or a affiliated state party [1] and in a other interview has hinted that the source may be Seth Rich [2], a former DNC staff member that was murdered in Washington DC.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCOy25GdjQ

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp7FkLBRpKg

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by hackuser on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @02:10PM (#13813581)
> There is no hard evidence where the DNC/Podesta leaks came from. However, Julian Assange has repeatedly said ...

Assange's claims are not hard evidence either, nor do I trust him.

US intelligence agencies say the Russians were involved and that kind of activity by the Russians is corroborated by intelligence agencies in Europe.

The nature of intelligence operations is that, if done correctly, there is no hard evidence unless the perpetrator wants there to be.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by untog on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @12:16PM (#13812275)
Is Julian Assange a reliable actor in this? He has every motive to deny that Russia are the source of the leaks.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by angry-hacker on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @02:00PM (#13813456)
Why wouldn't he suddenly be? Because he exposed the corruption of the party you supported? It doesn't work that way really. Either he is reliable, or not reliable to begin with. I have every reason believe he is, and he has demonstrated that people turn a blind eye on things if it fits their narrative of the world and politics.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by sanswork on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @02:29PM (#13813810)
You can trust the leak without trusting the leaker. I believe everything wikileaks has leaked has been legit. I also believe they frequently make extremely misleading statements(like the Seth Rich stuff) to push their own goals and I wouldn't doubt for a second that they would lie to push forward their own goals/or mask them.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by untog on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @10:01AM (#13820650)
We never needed to trust Assange, because we knew the source of the leaks - Snowden. I trust Snowden, I have never particularly trusted Assange.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by ubernostrum on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @02:29PM (#13813819)
Why wouldn't he suddenly be? Because he exposed the corruption of the party you supported?

He was never neutral or objective on the subject of Hillary Clinton. And isn't it convenient that despite our knowing of multiple politicians whose private email got hacked, hers is the only one he felt was worthy of publishing...

So, yeah, not exactly a "sudden" lack of objectivity on his part. Also it's been demonstrated his followers will turn a blind eye to things that don't fit their narrative.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by openasocket on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @12:55PM (#13812775)
> However, Julian Assange has repeatedly said that the source is not the russian goverment or a affiliated state party

How would he know? Isn't wikileaks set up so that people can submit data anonymously? Is he claiming that they got the data through different channels? Why would an insider purposefully leak the data in a way that de-anonymized him to Assange and possibly others, instead of using the established channels?

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by droithomme on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @02:23PM (#13813752)
> How would he know?

Not all leaks are submitted through the web forms. Craig Murray has stated that he received some of the leaks in person from a DNC insider during a face to face meeting in Washington, and he couriered those leaks to wikileaks himself.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/14/craig-murray...

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by extra88 on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @03:34PM (#13814558)
Huh, I had never heard that, why is that? Does Murray have a credibility problem, has he no evidence for his claim? Assume that any explanation that amounts to suppression by the "liberal media" or the "establishment" will fall on deaf ears.

Murray's Wikipedia page is not full of alarm bells, it does mention him appearing on Alex Jones's radio program but to discuss a non-crazy subject.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by openasocket on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @02:44PM (#13813985)
Yeah, but why would an insider do that? It just seems like it's exposing him/herself to undue risk for no real benefit.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by bertil on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @01:20PM (#13813037)
Wikileaks offers that possibility, but you can always include self-identifying documents in there.

I’m a lot more puzzled by the fact that Assange would say anything about the uploader, even if it is negative. I guess denying it’s the most likely suspect re-rolls the dice in most people’s head.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by staunch on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @03:39PM (#13814611)
> Assange has repeatedly said that the source is not the russian goverment or a affiliated state party

False!

He does not answer the question about someone affiliated with Russia handing him the information.

He always repeats this carefully worded answer: "our source is not the Russian government and it is not [a] state party."

Why so carefully worded -- why can't he say "no one affiliated Russia gave me the data"?

Because he knows it came through an intermediary for Russia and wants to be able to lie, but still have a weaselly excuse if he's caught.

The fact that he's spent a lot of time spreading the Seth Rich idea is even more suspect. It's a conspiracy theory straight out of the KGB's cold war book.

Seth Rich was murdered and his watch was yanked at. He fought back at his attacker(s). "Nothing was stolen!"

The professional assassin got into a fight with the victim and then shot him, but forgot to actually steal something? Not very likely.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by gknoy on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @11:59AM (#13812060)
Attributing the release of such secrets to someone who is already dead seems like it could be a very effective way of hiding one's source. ;)
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by crucialfelix on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @03:21AM (#13818818)
If Assange knows and has hard evidence that it isn't from any Russian connected source then he could present that and this would do huge damage to the US.

So why doesn't he ? If it was really the CIA that hacked the DNC then why would they be so stupid to blame Russia if Assange could so easily falsify that claim ? That's a huge reputation risk.

Assange only said that it wasn't the Russian Government themselves. Doesn't rule out it being a team of hackers with connections to Russian IC or even directly to the Kremlin.

Or even Russian hackers acting on their own but with the wink wink approval of Putin. Kremlin may even fund groups like startups. Give out money, see what happens. It's like Al Qaeda - they don't need to have an org chart or any explicit communication.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by pvg on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @11:42AM (#13811812)
The circumstantial evidence in the Podesta phishing is pretty decent, not really 'up in the air'.

https://www.secureworks.com/research/threat-group-4127-targe...

https://twitter.com/pwnallthethings/status/81662155364329472...

(the second link is a lengthy thread)

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by dmix on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @11:48AM (#13811903)
Right, someone found a phishing link sent to Podesta that reused a GMail login page by autogenerating URLs, hundreds of hashed urls were reversed and a bunch of the target emails were people/companies of interest to Russia. I was only thinking about what the US gov released regarding the DNC leaks. I forgot about that one.

It's very possible that many people had access to Podesta's email but the timing of that phishing attempt and the Wikileaks leak was a little too convenient to ignore.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by snissn on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @11:48AM (#13811910)
Can you point to information to research about connections to the DNC hack and Russia?
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by nyolfen on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @01:45PM (#13813309)
this is the best public evidence afaik (and it's pretty good): https://twitter.com/pwnallthethings/status/81662291586096332...
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by monochromatic on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @02:23PM (#13813749)
What public evidence is there that the DNC leaks were related to Russia?
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by metamet on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @03:19PM (#13814365)
Mostly this intelligence report from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/06/us/politics/d...
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by monochromatic on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @03:36PM (#13814582)
"We assess that X happened" isn't really public evidence for X. It's an argument from authority at best.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by atmosx on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @03:07PM (#13814226)
There's no evidence. It makes for a good romance though...
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by WillyOnWheels on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @12:26PM (#13812414)
I am nearly convinced by The Grugq's summary:

https://medium.com/@thegrugq/the-russian-way-of-cyberwar-edb...

"Alternating Competing Hypothesis"

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by camperman on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @11:35AM (#13811742)
> So far we only know the DNC leaks were very likely Russian.

We don't know that at all. There isn't a single piece of evidence for it anywhere.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by troyvit on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @11:55AM (#13812005)
https://arstechnica.com/security/2016/12/the-public-evidence...

There is some evidence, but no definitive evidence.

'"[SecureWorks] researchers assess with moderate confidence that the group is operating from the Russian Federation and is gathering intelligence on behalf of the Russian government," the report from SecureWorks concluded.'

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by zigzigzag on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @12:00PM (#13812073)
The "evidence" appears to be simply that one anonymous group about which nothing is known was going after targets that would presumably be of interest to Russia.

But that's simply heresy: such targets might also be of interest to western intelligence, or really anyone who wanted to stir up trouble by framing another country.

All we can say is that the correlation is interesting, but that's about it.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by jessedhillon on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @02:10PM (#13813580)
This is why we have intelligence -- the evidence for almost anything of consequence will never be able to meet a judicial, syllogistic standard. The idea that we need mathematically perfect deduction before we can make actionable conclusions is an assumption on your part.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by rand83746 on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @03:26AM (#13818841)
And the people inside the government to whom the intelligence is provided have every right to trust the source. However, to us in the public, we don't know these people, and have zero reason to trust them, absent actual factual evidence. What, you wouldn't put it past them to lie all the sudden?
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by jessedhillon on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @01:27PM (#13822346)
The logical end of that position is that states aren't allowed to keep secrets, which you are welcome to believe is possible, but it's not the world I believe we live in.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by astrange on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @03:14PM (#13814317)
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by res0nat0r on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @11:43AM (#13811833)
Unfortunately for this we aren't going to get some 1080p video of someone in a mask sneaking into the DNC server room, just the fact that the 17 agencies all agree based on what they've seen believe that to be the case.

Unfortunately everyone these days think everything is a conspiracy or has to have HD recordings of something they think happened as public evidence or it is false, but that's not how the world really works...

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by alasdair_ on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @12:33PM (#13812529)
>" just the fact that the 17 agencies all agree based on what they've seen believe that to be the case."

This simply isn't true. The whole "17 agencies" thing is a talking point that first came up in one of Hillary Clinton's debates and gets repeated without challenge.

The "17 agencies" didn't all independently make their own assesments about what happened and decided it was the Russians. Instead, James Clapper (at the time, the Director of National Intelligence) made the claim that the Russians were behind certain hacks. Clapper is the ultimate head of sixteen out of seventeen of the agencies.

The actual agencies involved include parts of the coast guard and the department of energy and other groups that seem REALLY unlikely to have conducted an in-depth, independent investigation into the hacking of a politician's emails.

Also, this is the same James Clapper who lied under oath to congress. Specifically, when asked “Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?” He responded, “No, sir.” Wyden asked “It does not?” and Clapper said, “Not wittingly."

This is perjury and he should have been prosecuted for it. At a minimum, lying under oath makes it less likely that anything else he claims should be taken at face value.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by jessedhillon on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @02:21PM (#13813724)
I don't believe it was perjury -- a statement made with the intention to deceive.

NSA makes a distinction between data and metadata, as we know. If you assume that distinction, then the question is -- "does the NSA collect actual communications content on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans" -- something which, to our knowledge, is not the case.

Can it? Potentially yes. But we haven't seen anything that suggests that it actually does.

At best, his response contains an assumption which is arguably normal for an NSA director to make, and which may have be conveniently advantageous to hold. But I'm sure, even if you ask him today, he will say that metadata does not constitute intelligence collection.

To prove perjury you need to demonstrate mens rea (guilty intent) and I think it's plausible that he did not intend to mislead the investigation. It was a hard question to answer, because he could not answer in a way that would reveal the existence of the program to collect metadata either.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by rand83746 on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @03:29AM (#13818851)
I'm not a lawyer and can't speak to whether or not he's guilty of perjury. But, he's definitely a fucking liar, and you can't argue with that.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by jessedhillon on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @01:31PM (#13822375)
> "This is for you, Director Clapper, again on the surveillance front. And I hope we can do this in just a yes or no answer because I know Senator Feinstein wants to move on. Last summer, the NSA director was at a conference, and he was asked a question about the NSA surveillance of Americans. He replied, and I quote here, ‘The story that we have millions or hundreds of millions of dossiers on people is completely false.’

> "The reason I’m asking the question is, having served on the committee now for a dozen years, I don’t really know what a dossier is in this context. So what I wanted to see is if you could give me a yes or no answer to the question, does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?"

To answer "no" to this question is to say that the NSA does not "have millions or hundreds of millions of dossiers" on Americans. I see no reason to believe why that's not the case. You're welcome to explain to me why storing communications metadata at the NSA is worse than requiring telcos to store it, but that's hardly the slam dunk "he's definitely a fucking liar" case you want it to be.

It's also unreasonable to expect the DNI to voluntarily admit to the existence of a centralized metadata repository in public, on TV. That's what the "he lied" folks expect to have happened here.

At the end of the day, "Clappergate" is just "where should the metadata live," and that is, to my mind, a very minor argument.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by res0nat0r on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @12:40PM (#13812608)
He wasn't going to out a secret program in a public hearing.

The folks asking the questions had security clearance and could have asked the question during a classified briefing but they chose not to.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by leesalminen on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @12:59PM (#13812821)
That doesn't make perjury legal.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by res0nat0r on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @01:13PM (#13812961)
If grandstanding to out a secret program when he knew the answer and was supposed to be asking that question in private I'd say it was fine, and it seems everyone else thought so also hence no charges.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by leesalminen on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @01:35PM (#13813200)
That's irrelevant.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by res0nat0r on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @01:45PM (#13813308)
Seems the consensus was the grandstanding was less important than national security since nothing came of it. I'd agree.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by leesalminen on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @03:27PM (#13814473)
I don't.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by NoGravitas on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @12:29PM (#13812457)
The thing is, "17 agencies agree" doesn't really mean anything, if the evidence that all 17 agencies are relying on is a single report from a private security company hired by the DNC, and not independent investigation. If all of those agencies had looked at the original evidence themselves, the story would be different.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by alasdair_ on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @12:36PM (#13812561)
Also, the "17 agencies" statement came from James Clapper, and not individually issued from each of the agencies themselves. It also bears mentioning that the "17 agencies" include groups that I really, really doubt bothered to investigate ANYTHING to do with a politician getting his emails hacked - do people actually believe that the coast guard was tracking down Russian hackers after DNC secrets? What about the department of energy? These are some of the "17 agencies" mentioned.
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by res0nat0r on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @12:33PM (#13812527)
But they aren't just relying on a single report from a private security company, where did you assume that?
Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by elif on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @01:27PM (#13813113)
https://www.wired.com/2017/01/fbi-says-democratic-party-woul...

fun fact, it is the same private company the government paid for evidence that North Korea (yeah, right) was responsible for the sony hack.

Re:CIA malware and hacking tools by rev_null on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @12:44PM (#13812656)
If 30 helens agreed, it would be a different case.