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Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by j45 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @02:10AM (#13789750)
No offence, some of this is dubious and degrading advice at best. Don't mean to be mean below in deconstructing the above, only clear.

Current heritage CEO of Google and Microsoft prove some things.

You don't choose things like the family you're born into or the colour of your skin. It's humiliating to be treated in a way to try to cover it up like you made a mistake of choosing those things.

Americanized name - If people can learn yoga and chai latte, I'm pretty sure it's not due to a lack of capability to give someone the dignity of learning their name. This isn't the 1970's. People should be free to choose their name, not adjust it for what someone might think.

Cultural norms - I do think there is benefit from being able to navigate and work in a lot of environments and groups. But doing it solely to fit in and be accepted may be a form of colonialism that creates the very insecurities generationally you're trying to type away in a few sentences. The more you learn about other cultures and people, the richer you get.

Accent - Being born and raised in North America, I get to speak perfect english. Sadly, sometimes salespeople in a store won't greet me unless I say hi first. Guess who smiles and always says hi first and hopes future generations might not have to.

I hope some of the below helps, I have had a few major transitions in my career and the things that helped to move to the next step included:

ABOVE ALL - Continue becoming well rounded for yourself, not others. People's own insecurities (including those who are hiring) will naturally want to be around someone who's calm, self-assured, and not phony. If you are swimming around a lot of phonies and not connecting with that culture, it's OK.

1) Always add value. First. - Most people are takers. Don't be one. Won't work if you're not a giver. Learn to be nice, and smart and give freely to good situations and things. The karma builds up and comes back. Whether or not one should need to, generating goodwill seems to help. Finding how to add value and help people achieve what they are doing will always come back. This is the most important thing I practice every single day. Give a shit about others and some, eventually will give a shit back. Don't worry about the one's who don't or the inefficiency of it all.

2) Self-Confidence - Know people who won't want to accept you for any reason will find a reason. Lazy people will find convenient reasons. People have their own hangups. There is a big difference between thinking less about yourself vs thinking less of yourself.

3) Self-directed - embrace your proud geek culture and be your own person learning and pursuing the things that interest you. It transfers to other areas of your life.

4) Work ethic - There will always be some you come across who don't like that you work harder than them, or less than them. Ignore them all.

5) 8x - I was told by a mentor that shared some good math: It's not uncommon to have to be twice as good to get half the respect, four times as good to be treated as an equal, and eight times as good so you can't be ignored. It's up to the individual, I guess to see that they end up winning by becoming. You will have to work hard anyways.

6) Be a creator - whatever you create, become good at sharing it online. What you built or have done in the last 2 years is the most relevant things folks will look at. Curate and keep it active and healthy with a good mix of the things that interest you and what you build when no one's looking

7) Out Educate - Whatever you're good at, give the knowledge away. The hard part is doing it. People who interview well but turn out to be garbage are bullshitters will not appreciate it. Companies who get burnt by the wrong hire will remember it. When I meet someone for some work together, I always give them the knowledge I have for free.

8) Be visible - build and share things to demonstrate capability of your work. Don't show off. It will introduce you to people, build your network, and on that basis introduce you to opportunities that are often created. Don't chase social status, but be aware that social proof

9) Communication - I won't tell you to get rid of your accent. But do ensure you know how to communicate extremely clearly when neccesary. If I went to another country, and success might be enhanced by how well I commit myself to being able to communicate flawlessly in that language, I might see that as a tool, but not a flaw or shortcoming in myself.

10) Dating - is for most, largely a blind emotional baggage collection exercise of expecting a complete stranger coming into your life to supplant and rise to the highest relationship in your life. If you're optimizing your life to meet and end up with the right person, improving yourself in the right way will improve the situations and opportunities for that to happen, it becomes apparent that it's more about realizing how to recognize that person and situation, and hope they do the same. When that clicks, one can end up happily, and hopelessly married forever. Don't confuse dating (temporary startup) with the goal of a lasting relationship (established business)

11) Don't take advice from people who don't have experience with what they are giving advice on. Like the post above in some cases.

I know you might feel excluded from some opportunities, but in a way, maybe it's filtering out the crap for you and you will only meet the people who genuinely want to work with you.

Being a visible minority can have it's perks. Like the exclusionary glances immediately telling you in a room who you can talk to and be a star with, and who you don't need to talk to.

While we don't know your exact situation, know you're not alone, and let the losers and losing situations filter themselves out, it is for the best.

Feel free to connect offline if you would like to chat some more.

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by GuiA on Saturday March 04, 2017 @04:07AM (#13790068)
A few of your remarks are solid in an ideological sense, but sadly the bulk of your comment comes across as "white dude mansplaining to an indian dude why he doesn't have to worry about racism".

Racism is alive and well, and a real problem that people have to deal with. Advice like "embrace your proud geek culture and be your own person learning and pursuing the things that interest you" is generic feel good woowoo that is just not relevant here.

"11) Don't take advice from people who don't have experience with what they are giving advice on. Like the post above in some cases."

Or like yours, as someone "born and raised in North America, [who] speaks perfect english"

Sorry man, but sometimes you have to accept that you don't have much to bring to a conversation, no matter how strongly you feel about it.

tl;dr: the post you replied to is linking freaking research papers to support what it says and your reply is "don't worry just think positive and everything will be fine"

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by j45 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @10:40AM (#13791301)
Hi, I'm not white. Not even close. I'm not sure why someone as openminded as yourself would jump to a conclusion. Sincerely have not meant to do it myself.

I assure you I'm among the most visible and targeted of minorities.

Racism is sadly, absolutely alive and well. The question is are you going to resign to it or engage with it in a positively unreasonable and relentless way? Ending racism is also a startup.

The first step for me to get used to taking a strangers and making them a human being so it's not as easy to dismiss them, or their experience.

It's concerning you might automatically think what I wrote is ideological. I practice these things every day. Happy to chat about any points above you'd like to know more about me, I just wanted to share what I have learnt by my own experience with the original poster, and the results it has helped achieve.

As for "generic woo woo culture", there's no need to put someone down, my message was for the original poster. If this has a hit a nerve with you of what you feel the world is, I agree it's not an easy place, and it gets harder, but the only peace I'm finding is when I'm getting better.. leave me no choice but to take responsibility for improving myself.

I also belong to another woo woo culture/practice that fiercely promotes manifesting yourself in action in the world through positivity action towards other, treating all of humanity as one and your extended family, and selfless service towards all. So why not be that way.

[email protected], would love to learn more about you :)

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by hkmurakami on Saturday March 04, 2017 @05:37AM (#13790286)
10x

Especially the American name thing. You can only know the disadvantages of having a non-western name if you've actually used one. There's a reason why so many ethnic (particularly Asian, from what I understand) lawyers use American "professional names".

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by zo1 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @08:07AM (#13790736)
I have a non-western name, and I get no problems. More curiosity and questions, rather than outright discrimination or anything of that sort.

The other advice really is solid: Don't fit the stereotype when you meet new individuals, and they won't treat you like one. First impressions count a lot, so you can't change someone's mind after the fact without a lot of work.

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by j45 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @10:41AM (#13791308)
I have a non-western name. I don't have an American or professional name. Not saying everyone should, or not, only that it exists.

Shortening one's name is a common practice among American names.

Ironically I grew up in a school environment where I was one of the few minorities, and when I got to university, people of a shared background shortened my name.

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by l_t on Saturday March 04, 2017 @10:54AM (#13791381)
What? Why do you think he's white? And even if he was -- his post is full of great advice. Any job candidate (or person, in general) would benefit from implementing those ideas to the best of their ability.

It's not "feel good woowoo," it's fundamental human psychology, and I think it's absolutely relevant here.

edit: I should add that I don't actually recommend blindly taking his, or anyone's, advice. Educating oneself should come first. I would recommending reading "Influence," by Robert Cialdini, if you want to learn more about the type of stuff discussed in j45's post.

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by j45 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @08:35PM (#13794109)
Thanks for the recommendation for the read, just bought it.

Pursued understanding a little too inefficiently myself, means a lot.

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by colmvp on Saturday March 04, 2017 @07:17AM (#13790574)
I could counterpoint his/her entire comment, but I'll just briefly say that citing the success of certain ethnicities (backgrounds of the CEOs of Microsoft and Google) is like implying racism/sexism is over because Obama was President and a woman almost became President.
Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by avasylev on Saturday March 04, 2017 @08:16AM (#13790759)
CEO is just publicly visible example, but at every level in Microsoft there're Indian, VP, managers, product managers, principal developers, regular developers. I think you can just browse/search Microsoft product managers thru linkedin to verify that. I'd be very surprised to see any bias towards any nationality at MS, given >50% of employees are foreign.
Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by colmvp on Saturday March 04, 2017 @09:31AM (#13791014)
I don't doubt that Microsoft might actively try to counter implicit racism which is evident in their demographics, but I do believe there are stats that show there are clear disparities between number of Asians in professional jobs and number of Asians who end up getting promoted from their positions to C-level positions.
Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by j45 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @08:31PM (#13794093)
There's no doubt "diversity" is corporate bs when it doesn't exist from the top down.

Such reflection also shines a light on how unreasonably hard some people, in any group are having to work to ensure organizations reflect society, and the nature of their sacrifices and commitment compared to others.

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by j45 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @08:28PM (#13794076)
The main reason I mentioned the CEO's, is outside of perceived differences or challenges, achieving goals often require becoming a lot better than one probably should have had to.

Attitude, curiosity, work ethic, being easy to get along with and work with others go a long way.

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by j45 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @08:26PM (#13794063)
Respectfully, it's not about counterpointing, or there only being one way to be right.

It's more about developing a positive and healthy inner mental and emotional dialogue that allows you to live in a viewpoint of seeing and acting on possibility instead of worshipping doubts to drag ourselves and others down.

Innovation, improvement happens by pushing yourself to grow, not finding faults in everything around you and in yourself.

No one will be in your corner if you aren't.

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by na85 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @08:19AM (#13790776)
>Sadly, sometimes salespeople in a store won't greet me unless I say hi first.

That sounds fantastic. I wish this was my experience when shopping because I hate being harassed by salespeople looking to make a commission.

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by j45 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @10:42AM (#13791316)
Hah, I didn't say it was a bad thing. Except when you actually do need help with something.

The strangest one (and it is rare) is was at Costco a few weeks ago. The guy just pointed at the payment terminal, didn't say hi. I asked him why he was pointing at the machine and not saying hi. I forgot to say hi first.

Re:Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, an... by z3t4 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @04:20AM (#13790100)
Looking different and having a different accent can also be seen as attractive. But there are human biases ... I have a theory that if you get a lot of calls from "scammers" (for example Microsoft support, saying you got a PC virus), and they have a special accent, you will form a bias that someone with that accent is untrustworthy.