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Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by 65827 on Sunday February 12, 2017 @03:49PM (#13630675)
Hopefully not, biggest scam out there.
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by throwawaydbfif on Sunday February 12, 2017 @03:53PM (#13630709)
The biggest scam is actually the other way around. Intel pulled ECC support from desktop processors a few years ago to force datacentres to buy their Xeons instead.

It's nearly impossible to find a desktop CPU that supports ECC ram now even though 5 years ago it was commonplace.

Trying to run a NAS with some sensitive data is now impossible unless you buy their server chips

Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by mcbain on Sunday February 12, 2017 @05:23PM (#13631367)
> It's nearly impossible to find a desktop CPU that supports ECC ram now

That's not correct. All 6th Gen Core i3 have ECC support, and the 7th Gen Core i3 that have 'E' in the product name support ECC:

http://ark.intel.com/products/97130/Intel-Core-i3-7101E-Proc...

Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by c2h5oh on Sunday February 12, 2017 @10:12PM (#13632866)
To be fair i3 being the lower end offering with just 2 cores isn't really competing against any of the server products Intel offers.

Quad (and more) core i5 and i7 that do have near-equivalent Xeon parts do have ECC disabled.

Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by jlgaddis on Monday February 13, 2017 @02:31AM (#13633692)
An i3 is very often a perfect chip for a NAS.
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by pshposh on Sunday February 12, 2017 @11:20PM (#13633105)
Person above is running a NAS; seems the i3 would be perfect.
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by throwawaydbfif on Tuesday February 14, 2017 @10:44PM (#13649516)
Sorry, maybe not a NAS but my point stands. Almost any chip that has a server equivalent either has ECC disabled in the chip or the motherboard chipset. This was never the case until some years ago, and the only example I've ever found of Intel removing a feature from their desktop chips exclusively. I don't see any other reason for this except to force people to buy Xeons for their servers
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by dogma1138 on Sunday February 12, 2017 @03:56PM (#13630727)
If you going the workstation route then 2011 Xeon CPU's do support ECC and are cheaper than Desktop HEDT parts.

Getting an Intel Xeon E3 for socket 1151 isn't particularly hard or expensive either.

Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by throwawaydbfif on Tuesday February 14, 2017 @10:46PM (#13649522)
Yeah have fun buying the motherboard that supports it. The whole thing reeks of bullshit
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by free652 on Sunday February 12, 2017 @08:21PM (#13632389)
I personally tested a number of low end haswell pentiums and i3s and they support ECC. I have a 4310T paired with a C222 server board for my ZFS NAS.
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by sliken on Sunday February 12, 2017 @07:08PM (#13632032)
Xeon E3's with ECC are rather similar, and even sometimes cheaper than the i5/i7 equiv. They are the same die after all.
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by laurentdc on Sunday February 12, 2017 @04:38PM (#13631054)
Why do you consider ECC the biggest scam out there?

Btw, is there any updated paper/source with some stats on bit-flip odds in modern computers?

Last I've read was this one [1] but it's been debated to death. [2] [3]

[1] http://lambda-diode.com/opinion/ecc-memory

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1109401

[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ayleb/got_4gb_...

Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by mozumder on Sunday February 12, 2017 @08:27PM (#13632428)
Speaking as a hardware engineer, no one should ever buy non ECC-RAM.

Smartphones and laptops should also come with ECC-RAM.

It is that important for reliability.

Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by dogma1138 on Sunday February 12, 2017 @08:36PM (#13632475)
If it is that important to reliability why isn't all software failing around us?

It's important but it's not that important outside of specific applications/use cases.

Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by mozumder on Sunday February 12, 2017 @09:30PM (#13632722)
> If it is that important to reliability why isn't all software failing around us?

They do fail. Lots and lots of times. And it gets worse over time, as chips degrade due to hot-electron effects or electromigration.

Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by dogma1138 on Sunday February 12, 2017 @10:00PM (#13632825)
You forgot random bits flipping due to cosmic radiation.
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by rixed on Sunday February 12, 2017 @10:01PM (#13632830)
Speaking with data regarding failure rates and its actual impact would be even more appreciated.
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by mozumder on Sunday February 12, 2017 @10:12PM (#13632867)
Yah that's not going to happen. Lot of that is Fab trade secret.

You'll have to use your best guess or intuition on this.

Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by rixed on Sunday February 12, 2017 @11:09PM (#13633058)
My personal experience tells me that a bit flip is very unlikely to cause a system to fail before a bug or normal termination turns it down. My intuition tells me this is due to shorter and shorter individual program life span due to expansion of client/server architecture, higher frequency of bugs due to expansion of untyped/unstructured data, and the fact that most data manipulated by a program is not initialized/used anyway. Only in very big clusters have I ever heard of memory failure being noticable, but even there I've never seen memory corruption cited in a post mortem. Having to deal with bugs and other hardware defects forces one to work around lack of data integrity anyway.
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by chatterbeak on Sunday February 12, 2017 @04:23PM (#13630945)
Really? I won't use a computer without it for production work. You get one bit-flip/GB/year. With 128GB or more in most of our desktops, it's not worth the risk.
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by baq on Sunday February 12, 2017 @03:59PM (#13630761)
Lived under a rock for the last year? Rowhammer is a thing now.
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by msbarnett on Sunday February 12, 2017 @04:06PM (#13630815)
ECC won't save you from Rowhammer. See the ECC RAM section of http://www.thirdio.com/rowhammer.pdf

On some systems, ECC is flat out broken or silently ignored. On many others ECC errors aren't reported to the OS in granular enough batches to do anything about them.

Edit: relevant portions:

> Before we begin to discuss our results, we must first discuss ECC protected systems and the fact that there are no standards on what constitutes ECC protection or ECC event reporting. At its base level, ECC protection simply means that a server can handle or correct single bit errors, although some systems advertise the ability to correct multiple bit errors. Generally, it is our belief that ECC events should be reported to the operating system so that savvy users can gauge the health of their infrastructure.

> Unfortunately, server vendors routinely use a technique called ECC threshold or the 'leaky bucket' algorithm where they count ECC errors for a period of time and report them only if they reach certain levels of failure. From what we understand, this threshold is commonly above 100 per hour, but this remains a trade secret and varies based on the server vendor. So, to see ECC errors (MCE in Linux or WHEA in Windows), there generally needs to be 100 bit flips per hour or greater. This makes “seeing” Rowhammer on server error logs more difficult.

> In addition, we have observed some server vendors will NEVER report ECC events back to the OS, although they might get logged into IPMI. Typically, users expect to see correctable ECC errors logged directly to the OS or that halt the system when they cannot be corrected. During our investigation into this phenomenon, we even encountered one server that neither reported ECC events to the OS nor halted when bit flips were not correctable. The end result was data corruption at the application level. This is something, in our opinion, that should never happen on an ECC protected server system.

> ...

> Using these advanced techniques, we were able to observe ECC events within the first 3 minutes of test time. Generally, this system would lockup or reboot within 30 minutes. Once again, this was on a Rowhammer mitigated system using both ECC and double refresh. So it follows that dual mitigations, on some systems, appear to be flawed and can be exploited as a denial of service.

Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by Qantourisc on Sunday February 12, 2017 @05:33PM (#13631439)
Correct me if I am wrong, it won't save you, but it should detect iirc (al least most) and then you can take any required action.

On the fact that it's broken on some systems. Isn't this like complaining about air bags that have been disabled ? It however very good you report that they are broken on some systems.

Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by dogma1138 on Sunday February 12, 2017 @06:37PM (#13631874)
It can fix single bit flips within the same ECC domain but not 2 or more bit flips. It's also doesn't help much in the detection realm, there are some ways of using performance counters to try to identify rowhammer but it only works on the most obvious attempts.
Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by dogma1138 on Sunday February 12, 2017 @04:03PM (#13630792)
ECC doesn't completely mitigate against rowhammer style attacks, it makes it more difficult in some cases and prevents single bit flipping attacks but multiple bit flipping attacks against a single ECC domain are still possible.

That said if you want hardware level attacks then attacks against the cachelines of the CPU are considerably more dangerous and reliable and there is very little one can do to mitigate against those.

Re:AMD Ryzen Full Lineup Prices, Specs and Clock Speeds Leaked by std_throwaway on Sunday February 12, 2017 @04:28PM (#13630981)
Thank you for taking the time to not answer the question but raising another question instead. I have serious doubts that ECC indeed is the biggest scam out there.

How does ECC compare to the fiat money ponzi scheme?