News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by pjc50 on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:19PM (#13625456)
Author bio: http://www.seti.org/seti-institute/board-of-trustee/john-ger...

John Gertz is the president and CEO of Zorro Productions, Inc., which he founded in 1977 ... He earned his M.A in psycholophysiology from Haifa University, and his B.A. in comparative mythology and religion at UCLA and Prescott College.

From the abstract: "Vastly increased SETI capabilities, Chinese involvement in the field, and an intensified effort by METI-ists to initiate radio transmissions to the stars are among reasons cited for urgency in addressing the question of appropriate regulations. Recommendations include regulations at the agency level and laws at the national level as well as international treaties and oversight."

I'm absolutely not a libertarian, but the only way I can parse this is as someone calling for the building of an international monopoly on talking to aliens (to his institute only) - with some surprising speech restrictions - because he's afraid they'll contact the Chinese first. This is IMHO even more left-field than the people worried about world-ending AI.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by throwaway7645 on Saturday February 11, 2017 @07:07PM (#13625693)
You can probably read his credentials as "likely not qualified". There is actually a whole panel of scientists from SETI like Paul Davies that will report to the president in case of first contact. Davies' book is really good btw.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday February 11, 2017 @07:42PM (#13625850)
Yes, that looks like an awful paper.

However, pardon me but why should "the president" (of the US, I presume?) be the person to report first contact to? Is the US president somehow representing the entire species, now?

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by throwaway7645 on Sunday February 12, 2017 @09:12AM (#13628370)
I'm guessing because most SETI research is done in the states and partially financed by taxpayer money. I don't know the specifics, but at first contact they would be an advisory panel to the president and government and our government would hopefully disseminate the data from our receivers to other nations.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by sverige on Saturday February 11, 2017 @09:08PM (#13626214)
I was going to ask how anyone could be "likely not qualified" to speculate about life existing on other planets, since there's absolutely no evidence that such life exists.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by pjc50 on Sunday February 12, 2017 @06:44AM (#13627931)
Well, the author is a movie producer and the US president always represents the world in the movies, so ...

(I believe this is called "cultural hegemony")

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by YeGoblynQueenne on Sunday February 12, 2017 @10:23AM (#13628724)
Correction: the US president always represents the world in Hollywood movies.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by sverige on Saturday February 11, 2017 @09:06PM (#13626198)
Yes, world-ending AI seems much more plausible than alien contact of any sort.

In the extraordinarily remote chance that we do contact aliens, though, it seems highly likely that said aliens will be hostile. I can't figure out why most people assume alien life forms would be friendly.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by Animats on Saturday February 11, 2017 @05:05PM (#13625113)
From the article: "The intentional transmission to interstellar targets of EM signals of a strength greater than Earth’s omni-directional leakage, should be considered as the reckless endangerment of all mankind, and be absolutely proscribed with criminal consequences."

Premature panic, perhaps.

If somebody somewhere has FTL travel, they'd probably be here already. If nobody has FTL travel, about all we can do is try to talk by radio, with a lot of lag.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday February 11, 2017 @07:11PM (#13625719)
>> If somebody somewhere has FTL travel, they'd probably be here already.

You don't need FTL travel to get here. All you need is interstellar travel at sub-luminal speeds, and a life span that makes it reasonable to undertake the journey from your home-world to the Earth.

Say, a species with a lifespan of ten thousand years living in a planet 10 light years away, that can travel at half the speed of light- it would take them 20 years to travel here and 20 to go back. For us, half a life-time. For them, just a short hop. And probably totally worth it if there was a habitable planet at the end of it.

Can we really say what is the expected life span of intelligent species with technological civilisations on planets in a 10 light years radius from us? Like hell we can.

Note also that with that kind of speed they'd be here within the lifetime of most people currently alive (even taking into account the 10 years it would take for SETI's message to reach them). Even with a quarter of the speed of light, many of us would be still around. We're not even talking geological time scales here. We'd have plenty of time to reflect on our foolishness. That's no way to go extinct, cursing at your species' stupidity.

If you won't listen to prof. Hawking at least listen to Hawkwind: Space is deep. Don't go fucking with it.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by pmoriarty on Saturday February 11, 2017 @07:28PM (#13625786)
They don't even need to have a long lifespan. They could have the same or even shorter lifespans than humans but use generation ships, or go in to some kind of stasis, or they could send out robotic drones or von Neumann probes.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday February 11, 2017 @07:34PM (#13625807)
Yes indeed! Or they could be a BSG-like space-nomad armada drifting in look for a new homeworld. Or a Borg-like space-faring colony.

Those are just silly popular Sci-fi series scenarios and already they do to "You Need FTL to Attack the Earth" what the Vehrmacht did to the Maginot line.

We can't be debating SETI's happy-go-lucky talk-to-aliens plans at that sort of level. These guys need to be reminded, we may be alone in the universe but they're not alone on this planet. Even if there was no risk at all, unilaterally deciding to try and contact an alien species on behalf of all humankind is insanely irresponsible.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by grzm on Saturday February 11, 2017 @07:21PM (#13625751)
and a life span that makes it reasonable to undertake the journey from your home-world to the Earth.

You can even relax this requirement if you're willing to consider generation ships: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_ship

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by pdonis on Saturday February 11, 2017 @05:34PM (#13625258)
> Premature panic, perhaps.

I would say pointless panic. The paper itself makes the point that if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe that is capable of coming here to Earth, it is going to be millions of years (or more) ahead of us technologically. That means we would be at the mercy of such beings if they came here. But it also means we have already betrayed our presence to them, whether we make SETI broadcasts or not; we have been broadcasting radio and TV signals that, to such a species, will clearly indicate intelligent origin for about a century now. So the instant such a species comes within 100 light years of Earth, it will know we are here. There is nothing we can do about that, and draconian restrictions on further broadcasts will not change it.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by dogma1138 on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:00PM (#13625367)
It's not the same thing. Even without any intention of malice Columbus would not have ended well for the natives.

Any sufficiently advanced civilization would supercede lesser ones. Even if contact would be limited to prevent any cultural leakage the knowledge of the existence of intelligent life will lead to collapse of at least 3 major religions and their cultural frameworks.

Aliens might know we exist but they might have rules against visitation unless being invited first. Individuals that send powerful invitations can be seen as putting the earth and human civilization as we know it at risk.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by Animats on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:29PM (#13625501)
"Even if contact would be limited to prevent any cultural leakage the knowledge of the existence of intelligent life will lead to collapse of at least 3 major religions and their cultural frameworks."

Religion isn't that vulnerable to rationality. Christianity has survived Copernicus, Martin Luther, evolution, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and 2000 years of Jesus Christ failing to show up as promised.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by throwanem on Saturday February 11, 2017 @10:14PM (#13626451)
I don't really know of anything in Christianity, at least, that's incompatible with the idea of life elsewhere in the universe. Biblical literalists would take it hard, probably, but those guys have a lot more problems than space aliens.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by molmalo on Sunday February 12, 2017 @01:31AM (#13627108)
Nope, The Vatican has been saying for a couple years now, that the existence of extraterrestrial life, even intelligent life, does not contradict the Bible. They accept the possibility, because after all, "In the beginning God created the sky and the earth."
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by pdonis on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:30PM (#13625511)
> Even without any intention of malice Columbus would not have ended well for the natives.

I think that's true, but it doesn't change anything I was saying.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by dogma1138 on Saturday February 11, 2017 @07:49PM (#13625883)
Invitation is different than just being aware of ones existence.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by BrailleHunting on Saturday February 11, 2017 @09:05PM (#13626193)
The weak are meat and the strong do eat.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by inopinatus on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:04PM (#13625389)
Consider the possibility that somebody somewhere has FTL destructive capability, distinct from FTL travel.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by pdonis on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:42PM (#13625577)
There's no real difference: both require being able to send matter/energy FTL.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by inopinatus on Saturday February 11, 2017 @07:28PM (#13625787)
How about manipulating spacetime at a distance? Maybe fold your planet into your star in a dimension currently inaccessible to humans.

I know, I know, it's space opera stuff.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by pdonis on Saturday February 11, 2017 @10:06PM (#13626425)
> How about manipulating spacetime at a distance?

How would that change anything? You're still sending matter or energy FTL; you need matter or energy to curve spacetime.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by inopinatus on Sunday February 12, 2017 @01:59AM (#13627182)
It's a foolhardy assumption that matter and energy are the only forms of existence in our universe, let alone all possible universes.

I'm not even sure they are distinct except in mode of perception. They may both be emergent properties of a universe that is a) functional and b) lazily evaluated.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by Teever on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:30PM (#13625512)
Are there any sort of proposed or theoretical FTL weapons?
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by throwaway7645 on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:56PM (#13625647)
Put bluntly, if any aliens have FTL tech they could strap it on an asteroid and vaporize the earth. More simple than that would be to send nano-bots, an asteroid of significant size coming for us at any speed, or a thousand other things. Any civilization with that level of science/engineering know-how would most likely be like the US army going waging war with Neanderthals throwing spears.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by Teever on Saturday February 11, 2017 @07:41PM (#13625843)
So in other words the prospect of an FTL weapon is irrelevant?
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by throwaway7645 on Tuesday February 14, 2017 @11:05PM (#13649600)
Well, to us I think it would be irrelevant as it wouldn't take anything 1/2 as complicated or energy intensive to do in our planet. However, an FTL weapon could be relevant to an FTL capable species at war with another FTL species. What is interesting is that motion through space + motion through time must add up to the speed of light. So an FTL weapon would arrive at the target before it was launched if I understand the consequences right.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by pdonis on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:41PM (#13625571)
> Are there any sort of proposed or theoretical FTL weapons?

No.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by cthalupa on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:57PM (#13625652)
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by pdonis on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:59PM (#13625662)
> Sure there are.

If you include "believed to be impossible" in the definition, I guess.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by pmoriarty on Saturday February 11, 2017 @07:34PM (#13625809)
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." -- Arthur C. Clarke
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by pdonis on Saturday February 11, 2017 @10:08PM (#13626433)
Thanks for the implicit compliment, but I'm not a distinguished but elderly scientist. :-)
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by 3825 on Saturday February 11, 2017 @05:33PM (#13625247)
(Please pardon my ignorance and lack of proper terminologies. I'm not a scientist.)

Does faster than light mean instantaneous? Is there no "speed limit" (that we know of) above the speed of light?

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by pdonis on Saturday February 11, 2017 @05:36PM (#13625267)
> Is there no "speed limit" (that we know of) above the speed of light?

No. But as far as we know, the speed of light is an absolute speed limit.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by dogma1138 on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:02PM (#13625385)
Faster than light doesn't mean instantaneous it can but doesn't have too.

Objects can move relatively at greater speeds than light when you account for the expansion of the universe.

Other hypothetical modes of transportation such as wormholes, hyperspace or quantum slip space allow you to take shortcuts but often there will be travel time involved.

Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by evanb on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:22PM (#13625467)
Objects far apart from one another move at relatively greater speeds after accounting for the expansion of the universe simply because there's new space getting created in between. Nothing moves faster than light relative to its local surroundings.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by dogma1138 on Saturday February 11, 2017 @07:48PM (#13625878)
Yes which is exactly what was said.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by kobeya on Saturday February 11, 2017 @05:35PM (#13625264)
The speed of light is ultimate. Nothing travels faster than light. Furthermore it is not arbitrary but emerges from the geometry of space time. Talking about a limit above it doesn't really make physical sense.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by danenania on Saturday February 11, 2017 @06:47PM (#13625604)
If the speed of light can be exceeded by manipulating space itself, ala a warp drive, couldn't there perhaps be (currently unknown) laws governing spatial expansion and contraction that would effectively set another higher speed limit?
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by throwaway7645 on Saturday February 11, 2017 @07:05PM (#13625687)
Our current understanding of physics puts a hard limit on matter traveling at or above the speed of light as your mass increases as you approach the speed of light requiring an ever greater (infinite amount of energy) to get you there. With that being said, we still don't have a perfect understanding of physics, so there is wiggle room. However, our models are really good both on the drawing board and in observation, so it looks unlikely at this stage (I'm not a physicist, but read the dumbed down books they publish for the masses).
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by kobeya on Sunday February 12, 2017 @04:04PM (#13630810)
That's not exceeding the speed of light. That's changing the distance you need to go so that you can get to where you want to be at sublight speeds in reasonable time.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by WhitneyLand on Saturday February 11, 2017 @09:43PM (#13626339)
When you think about the number open questions in theoretical physics, and the fundamental importance they have to filling in the still large gaps in our understanding of nature, shouldn't your statement be qualified just a bit?
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by ComputerGuru on Saturday February 11, 2017 @09:37PM (#13626323)
Whatever protocol doesn't matter. If/when aliens get here, that will literally change everything.
Re:Post-Detection SETI Protocols and METI: The Time Has Come... by directionless on Saturday February 11, 2017 @10:58PM (#13626616)
Any else read _Three Body Problem_ ?