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Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @08:47PM (#13603937)
There's something fundamentally broken about the open-source model when you can invest so much time and npt get any sort of economic return. This seems like a huge limiting factor on open-source development. As I've pointed out in discussions on copyright issues, artists value copyright because the patronage model sucked - you're essentially dependent on people's charity and having to beg just to maintain basic economic security is inefficient, demoralizing, and unreliable.

I think services like Patreon etc. are quite worthy but they're also dysfunctional. Nobody has solved the micro-payment problem yet and it seems like people have just given up trying. In a saner world this person would be rewarded for the enormous technical contribution with a reliable pension of some sort to remove the distraction of financial anxiety.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by mamcx on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:26PM (#13604132)
That is because open source IS NOT an bussines model. is a distribution model (of code, instead of binary).

You need to plug the bussines model to sourcecode, similar how you need to plug one to binary.

Unfortunately, give source is in a lot of ways give the MOST SIGNIFICANT VALUABLE OUTPUT a programmer do.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by eyan on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @10:24PM (#13604411)
Most insightful comment in this mishmash.

I'll say it again for future searchers of wisdom: Open Source is not a Business Model.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @11:00PM (#13604574)
Yeah yeah but that doesn't solve the problem of programmers needing to eat and pay rent, so I guess the answer is why not? If people can't afford to to invest time in writing OSS even if it's widely respected and reused, then that limits the development of open source. I mean here's this guy with a ~25 year body of work which everyone agrees to be of pretty high quality and he's broke. That ain't right.

Saying 'it's not a business model' is basically equivalent to saying 'I don't have to worry about money.'

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by wpietri on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @11:14PM (#13604630)
Not at all. Closed source isn't a business model either.

A business model is where you figure out who will give you money in exchange for value delivered. If you need money, you probably should think about that. And then you'll need to spend some time on execution of that plan.

I get that programmers just want to make things and have people use them. I feel that too. But pretending that "open source" is a business model is essentially just denying economic reality. It's the same thing when young artists grumble about having to earn a living somehow when they'd rather just be creating art.

People can definitely make a living with open-source software. But it doesn't happen by magic, any more than it does with closed-source software. It takes thought and work. That work is grubby and mundane and a bit banal, but it has to get done.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Thursday February 09, 2017 @01:55AM (#13605186)
Closed source is a business model because the customer wants what your software does but can't see how it's achieved, so they pay you money to buy a license instead of just re-implementing it.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by wpietri on Thursday February 09, 2017 @02:37AM (#13605338)
No.

I have a ton of closed-source software in my projects folder. That's not a business model. Neither is open-source software, where I take some of that stuff and throw it up on GitHub.

A business model is where I repeatably create value for others and receive money in exchange. A modern software company can do that in a variety of ways, including selling training, documentation, support, custom features, consulting, services, and licensing.

Both open- and closed-source companies do that. They have business models. But open source on its own is not a business model, and neither is closed source.

And what's definitely not a business model is releasing something as open source and hoping that somebody gives me money. Businesses don't just happen. Somebody has to build them.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by pjmlp on Thursday February 09, 2017 @04:24AM (#13605675)
The difference with open source, is that I can take you out of business with the code you wrote yourself.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by wpietri on Thursday February 09, 2017 @06:39AM (#13606217)
Sure, there are differences, but I'm not sure that's one of them. Can you name some companies where that has happened? I'm pretty sure I can name a lot more where it hasn't.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by pjmlp on Thursday February 09, 2017 @07:11AM (#13606358)
I don't keep track of it.

It is however a possibility.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by ccozan on Thursday February 09, 2017 @07:27AM (#13606422)
The biggest counter-example is RedHat.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by pjmlp on Thursday February 09, 2017 @07:38AM (#13606470)
You mean CentOS and Unbreakable Enterprise Kernel ?
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Thursday February 09, 2017 @02:26PM (#13610012)
Repetition of your assertions isn't an argument.

I make some software. You like what it does and want to use it. I ask for money. If the price is right you give me cash and I give you an executable file.

How is that not a business model?

And what's definitely not a business model is releasing something as open source and hoping that somebody gives me money. Businesses don't just happen. Somebody has to build them.

I never claimed open source was a business model. I said the inability to easily monetize OSS is a limiting factor on its development because people need to eat and pay rent.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by wpietri on Friday February 10, 2017 @01:56AM (#13613723)
If you are now saying that open source is not a business model, then we agree. As far as I could tell, you were arguing vigorously that it was.

> I make some software. You like what it does and want to use it. I ask for money. If the price is right you give me cash and I give you an executable file. How is that not a business model?

That business model is selling executables that let your customers do some unspecified thing they care about. I have paid money to people who give me executables for both open- and closed-source software, so that description applies to both.

Making and releasing open-source software to the public, though, is not a business model. Which is why the Octave developer is struggling.

> I said the inability to easily monetize OSS is a limiting factor on its development because people need to eat and pay rent.

Right. But that's not specific to open-source software. Needing to eat, etc, is a limiting factor on making all software. And making almost anything else.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by eyan on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @11:54PM (#13604771)
> Saying 'it's not a business model' is basically equivalent to saying 'I don't have to worry about money.'

No, Sir. I think the point flew past you. Saying "it's not a business model" means that you need to worry about how to sustain yourself from the get-go if you want to go where ever pleases you, open or closed source.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Thursday February 09, 2017 @01:57AM (#13605193)
Obviously, but given the low prospect of getting paid for doing open source work on it will be performed primarily by those who don't need a return on the time invested.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by eyan on Thursday February 09, 2017 @02:27AM (#13605298)
I totally agree with this analysis.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Thursday February 09, 2017 @02:29PM (#13610047)
I apologize for not articulating it more clearly in the first place. I meant to contribute an off-the-cuff economic sketch, not start a semantic argument over corporate terms of art.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by Swizec on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @08:58PM (#13603999)
> There's something fundamentally broken about the open-source model when you can invest so much time and npt get any sort of economic return. This seems like a huge limiting factor on open-source development.

The problem we have is that OSS creators don't realize, and often willfully ignore, the fact that nothing about opensource says you can't charge for delivering value to people. Sure, their ability to copy it themselves and do stuff might reduce your leverage, but I can almost promise you that a company which generates $10,000,000/year of revenue and relies on your software, will throw money at you if you ask. Especially if you say something like "You know, since you're not paying me for this, I can totally stop maintaining it at any point and then you'll be fucked because your business relies on this".

But many engineers don't like to be business people. So here we all are.

It's really not that hard: Do people's livelihoods and businesses rely on your work? Are you improving people's lives? Charge.

Doing it for fun and no interest in making a business? That's fine, but don't expect to make a living off of a thing you're not charging money for.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:38PM (#13604183)
I think this is maybe a reaction to the way AT&T made Unix so expensive and inaccessible to hackers for so long that the idea of charging $$$ for something whose marginal cost of production was effectively $0 that the idea of charging money was morally repulsive to a lot of key figures in the movement.

In a way OSS seems like the sort of thing that would have worked great in some hypothetical enlightened communist system that didn't suppress liberty.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by pjmlp on Thursday February 09, 2017 @04:27AM (#13605684)
> AT&T made Unix so expensive and inaccessible to hacker

Actually you got it wrong, it was precisely because AT&T could not legally charge the prices other vendors were selling their OSes, that UNIX got adopted by universities and small business, thus spreading its use in the industry.

The ones charging lots of money for UNIX clones were Sun, HP, Digital, HP, ...

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Thursday February 09, 2017 @02:36PM (#13610109)
I thought sun was in partnership with AT&T when system V came out, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Unix appears to support that idea, but my first-hand memories have dimmed with time (cause it's not something I care about that much) and you may well be right.

I do remember, um, liberating an overlooked copy of system V/386 on 5.25" floppies that I found in a storage cupboard when I worked at PC Magazine in 1992 :-)

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by pjmlp on Thursday February 09, 2017 @02:52PM (#13610280)
If you have some time to refresh memory.

"A Narrative History of BSD by Dr. Kirk McKusick"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds77e3aO9nA

"Unix came into many CS departments largely because it was the only powerful interactive system that could run on the sort of hardware (PDP-11s) that universities could afford in the mid '70s. In addition, Unix itself was also very inexpensive. Since source code was provided, it was a system that could be shaped to the requirements of a particular installation."

http://www.princeton.edu/~hos/frs122/unixhist/chen.htm

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Thursday February 09, 2017 @09:21PM (#13612805)
Thanks, this looks enjoyable and informative.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by Swizec on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:53PM (#13604243)
Sure, marginal cost is $0, I agree. But building and maintaning huge swathes of million (billion?) dollar infrastructures/architectures for enterprises for free feels somehow more wrong than building a small business that supports a few maintainers' families.

Or as a famous talk once said: fuck you, pay me.

https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Thursday February 09, 2017 @01:59AM (#13605200)
Indeed. I'm just making a guess about the motivations of some OSS leaders, and a shallow one at that.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by josephagoss on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:10PM (#13604065)
You're entirely correct here. These OSS creators have leverage but are either unaware or unwilling to take advantage of their advantageous position.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by toomuchtodo on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:14PM (#13604081)
Is there no middle ground between OSS maintainers/contributors going hungry and them holding businesses hostage for ransom?
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by beambot on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @10:24PM (#13604407)
Indeed, there is: market segmentation.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by josephagoss on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:54PM (#13604253)
To be honest I hope there is middle ground, I just cannot see it. I want OSSc creators to be well compensated. These people are providing the world with an incredible service.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by trome on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @11:48PM (#13604748)
Entire businesses like Red Hat & Suse are built on the middle ground. There is room in the market for OSS creators to be compensated for their work.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Thursday February 09, 2017 @02:01AM (#13605216)
True, but not everyone wants to be part of a business. What if there were some umbrella nonprofit that collected funds for open source development and redistributed to various projects in approximate proportion to their deployment in production, as well as seed or micro-capital to encourage new contributions?
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by tavert on Thursday February 09, 2017 @02:12AM (#13605256)
You mean like http://www.numfocus.org ? That's not quite how their fiscal sponsorship agreements work, but close enough.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Thursday February 09, 2017 @02:43PM (#13610182)
Did not know about this. Thanks for sharing, this is very encouraging to see.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by krylon on Thursday February 09, 2017 @03:28AM (#13605474)
I may have been misunderstanding the whole thing, but wasn't the FSF supposed to kind of do that (among other things, but still)?
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Thursday February 09, 2017 @02:42PM (#13610175)
I'm not sure, I haven't followed the topic closely enough in recent years to form an opinion.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by dboreham on Thursday February 09, 2017 @01:17AM (#13605077)
Have you actually tried this?
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by Swizec on Thursday February 09, 2017 @01:35AM (#13605120)
Similar. I put out free technical blogs and charge for technical books. For a demographic that's allergic to paying, engineers are really profitable.

An extra $30k/year is pretty nice for a sidehustle I think. Mostly on track to do double that this year.

And of course, if a company asks for consulting, I charge. But I'm not focusing on consulting these days.

However a company is paying me to develop tech material for them as a content marketing strategy. At $600/article it's not a bad gig and I'm probably undercharging.

So .. uh .. the answer to your question is Yes, sortof.

You can read more about it here: https://swizec.com/blog/learned-6x-income-4-years/swizec/734...

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by nuntius on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:00PM (#13604012)
Fully agree regarding your points about micro payments. Patronage, monopoly-priced copyright, and advertising have all proven to have bad side-effects.

IMO, the market may be acting rationally here. I have tried Octave several times, and always moved on with little regret. Genuine Matlab is tolerable for some prototyping tasks. A slow clone of Matlab has little value outside of academic environments where Matlab compatibility is required. Programmers use their favorite language, and others use a spreadsheet.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by wolfgke on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @08:57PM (#13603992)
> because the patronage model sucked - you're essentially dependent on people's charity

Also with copyright you are essentially dependent on people's willingness to pay.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:30PM (#13604141)
Totally true but it's far easier to negotiate when you have a legally tangible asset for trade. Like if you express interest in buying my painting we might have different ideas on the price but there's no question about the basic idea that it could have a commercial value. If we lived in an earlier era and you commission a portrait of yourself or so it was quite questionable whether such things were even a commercial item.

Now digital distribution has upended the copyright model because you no longer need the resources of a publisher to distribute your work (good) but as creative work proliferates it's as hard as ever to polish and market it successfully and more difficult than it was to monetize (bad).

Of course it depends what you're doing. Some people make a fortune just yakking opinions into a webcam on YouTube or suchlike, and that's working out great for many many people. It's my bad luck that my tastes are a long way outside the mainstream and I'm not so brilliant that I can just crank out some commercial stuff on the side when I want cash.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by aangjie on Thursday February 09, 2017 @01:14AM (#13605072)
This is one reason, I look at contributing to open source as a way of building reusable tools I want to use.(in service of some other goal). rather than trying to contributing to them as a goal in and of itself. The most progress i seem to make are in projects of the first kind. As long as I can't justify it(time on OSS) in service to making money on some other goal, I can't work on OSS at all.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by xtracto on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @10:12PM (#13604341)
I always thought that a good open-source business model could be to develop a new version of some software and then ask for $X amount (related to how much effort it took to get to the version) to release the code. That's a win-win situation.
Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by jlarocco on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:04PM (#13604031)
I see what you're saying, but I can't feel sorry for people in this position.

It's a no brainer that giving away a product for free won't be a sustainable way to earn a living. It's not like there's a big mystery around how to make money off of software.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Thursday February 09, 2017 @02:53PM (#13610291)
You're right, but I would like to find a solution to that problem. If a person's skillset is in programming and not business administration, I want to see them rewarded for the value they create without their being reduced to the indignity of begging.

Essentially I'm proposing private-sector communism; let's find a way to raise money from people who depend on open source, and then find a reasonably good way for figuring out who to throw some at. It doesn't have to be perfectly proportional to the popularity of what they're doing, the goal is reduce financial insecurity rather than have a Great Accounting.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by was_boring on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @08:57PM (#13603990)
> Nobody has solved the micro-payment problem yet

what is this problem?

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by kelnos on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:05PM (#13604041)
I assume the parent is referring to the problem where it's prohibitively expensive (from a payment processing perspective) to receive lots of small, sub-dollar payments.

Also there's a lot of friction if you're relying on your users to pull out their credit card info for such a small amount.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by anigbrowl on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:53PM (#13604242)
Actually no, sorry for the lack of clarity. I was thinking more of the administrative problem for the consumer.

Like, I read a lot of news, and every news outlet I read would like me to subscribe. But while I do have couple of subscriptions, and if I was a bit better off I'd throw down for a few more, but if I were to buy a subscription to every outlet that I read 1 or more articles a month from then not only would it get expensive, it would generate an annoyingly large number of renewable transactions. I don't want 30 different subscriptions, especially when I might read a publication frequently for several months and then take a break from it for a similar period. I really like the journalism at The Atlantic for example but I haven't gone to their website for maybe 6 months; in this febrile political climate I've been reading more instant news and a bit less analysis/longitudinal work.

As you say I don't much care to pull out the credit card for a small amount, but I'll make smallish one-off purchases when I find something cool. What I'd like would be that I pay some fixed amount like $25/month and someone else takes care of distributing it approximately proportionate to where I spent my attention.

When book/magazine stores were more popular I used to buy a lot of magazines because I could go to one place and get a wide variety but not necessarily always the same ones every month. But it was only one or two financial transactions with a single vendor, the magazine store. This was more expensive than subscriptions, but more flexible plus I didn't get nearly as much junk mail. I hate marketing and when you buy magazine subscriptions you get swamped with it.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by viraptor on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:30PM (#13604143)
That part has been fixed by https://flattr.com/ You either prepay or setup a periodic payment and then just click the flattr badges whenever you want. They get funded from your flattr pool. No need for the card every time.

Unfortunately flattr didn't really take off.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by harry8 on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @10:06PM (#13604313)
> Unfortunately flattr didn't really take off.

So it is still not fixed.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by viraptor on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @10:29PM (#13604433)
The problem as stated was: "it's prohibitively expensive (from a payment processing perspective) to receive lots of small, sub-dollar payments", and "a lot of friction if you're relying on your users to pull out their credit card info for such a small amount".

These are solved. User adoption is a completely different issue that applies to almost all donation systems. Even if nobody uses X, it doesn't mean X doesn't exits.

Re:Looking for Work After 25 Years of Octave by robotresearcher on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @11:41PM (#13604716)
You missed the parent's point which is that just because a product exists, doesn't mean a the problem it addresses is solved in practice. Even a very good solution needs to be known about, readily available, priced correctly, and not suppressed by other forces, as well as extant.