Not only is there the issue of discovering what's been lost in translation, but also the existing texts have been heavily edited over the centuries. Entire books could have conceivably been lost. Forgeries could have been adopted. Even if you disregard all that, is there really an objectively correct way to read Christian (or any) scripture? I'd say no.

My view is that religions are like languages. What defines a language is what is widely spoken and widely understood within some community. It doesn't matter whether a word has been recorded in a dictionary. It can be said to be part of the language if it is used and understood.

By the same token, I would define religions as they are practiced, not based on some interpretation of what has survived from the texts. Based on that view, there isn't (and never has been) a monolithic Christian religion. Instead there are many fragmented communities that have varying rituals/practices. Some of these practices are quite widespread (mainstream) and some are not.

I understand the desire to base our understanding of religions on the texts. But I can't see any coherent way to do it.

There has actually been surprisingly little editing mostly because there are thousands of very old NT manuscripts, with copies of most of the NT dating from just 100 years or so after its writing.

There are scribe errors and even some editing, but the sheer number of ancient examples is enough to reach consensus.

There are known to be other gospels and epistles that were in circulation in the second and third centuries, and the oldest surviving manuscript of the Gospel of Thomas is roughly contemporaneous with the oldest surviving of the canonical gospels. So why is the Gospel of Luke more authoritative than the Gospel of Thomas? The short answer is those who the modern Christian churches choose to believe are authoritative found one more in agreement with it than the other (note that this does not pass judgement on whether or not that belief is historically accurate).

"Just 100 years after its writing"

... Because a verbal recollection about a controversial topic is so trustworthy and surely haven't been 'edited'. Remember how many 'facts' there are about Holocaust deniers? And this is happening with actual evidence to the contrary around.

Yes, there is no way to prove that something wasn't edited in the intervening century. However we do have many early sources. If there were large edits made during this time we would expect to see more variation in the early sources we do have.

This assumes there was no selection bias in what was preserved. If they agreed so well then how would you explain the huge variety in early christian sects?

Yes it is possible that alternative versions of the books of the New Testament existed, but were destroyed or not preserved. However, it is likely that if this were the case, we would have references to these alternate versions. We have many writings from early church leaders discussing canonical and heretical texts. These writings don't mention that there were heavily edited versions of the New Testament texts when discussing heretical texts. They do mention that there were additional texts that they considered heretical.

>If they agreed so well then how would you explain the huge variety in early christian sects?

There are hundreds of protestant sects today, yet nearly everyone uses identical copies of the Bible. There is plenty of room for variety from different interpretation of the same text.

Various heresies arose and were condemned as heresies, but they were mostly based either on differing interpretations or a different view was to what texts they considered canonical. No early Christian heresy that I'm aware of depending on an alternative version of the books of the New Testament.

Protestantism came about long after the bible, early christian sects didn't have a bible.

There are many books that never got accepted as canon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel#Non-canonical_gospels , possibly many differing versions of the same books. And there were many early sects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_in_early_Christian_t... . The further down you go the messier things get but there was more diversity in early christianity than modern christianity.

You argued that the variation between sects was evidence of multiple versions of the New Testament texts. I offered the number and variation of protestant sects despite using the same text as a counterexample.

>There are many books that never got accepted as canon:

Yes that is true. There are many non canonical books. That was however, not the original argument. We have no arguments from early church leaders that heretical sects were using an alternate version of various books. We have many arguments that heretical sects were using different books entirely.

That being said, the modern canon was decided very early on --probably by the latter half of the 2nd century, and the books there are very good arguments as to why certain books were omitted.

>possibly many differing versions of the same books

There is little evidence for this. Again we have plenty of evidence for competing books. Not much evidence for differing versions of the books that we have.

> And there were many early sects

Most of the sects mentioned on the wikipedia page were offshoots of the mainstream church that were quickly declared heretical. You can obviously argue that the winner writes history, but this argument does nothing to support the claim that the books we have today are heavily edited versions.

>The further down you go the messier things get but there was more diversity in early christianity than modern christianity.

This makes no sense. Obviously as you go back to the source there were fewer followers and thus fewer versions. Thousands of years of schisms produced much more variation, not less.

The marcionites (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism#Marcionite_canon) for one had different versions Luke and the pauline epistles.

> This makes no sense. Obviously as you go back to the source there were fewer followers and thus fewer versions. Thousands of years of schisms produced much more variation, not less.

It makes perfect sense, early schisms had much more genetic material to draw there variations from and no centralized authorities. Are there any sects today as diverse as the Ebionites and Marcionites?

Except that the sources we have for even just the Gospels (specifically, the synoptic Gospels) are evidence of large edits (and probably at least one non-preserved source), it's just that then surviving differing results of those edits have been traditionally ascribed as independent works of different authors.

I'm not aware of any scholars who believe that the Gospels are just differing branches--the results of various edits.

Also most scholars believe that they were all written during the first century, so the claim that there were "edits over the centuries" that I was initially refuting is incorrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke#Comparison_with...

You've pointed out one case where some scholars believe some information wasn't included. However, Mark is right there along side it with that information. Nothing was lost. It certainly wasn't the result of various edits over the centuries.

Also the supposition on Matthew's motives is just that, supposition. If he were synthesizing multiple texts and other oral sources, he likely wouldn't reproduce them all in their entirety.

And why are you citing wikipedia as a source?

Excuse me, I guess you haven't noticed that the author of earlier comments with whom you exchanged opinions is not the one who wrote the comment you answered here.

Let me try to explain you why I gave that Wikipedia quote here. I've read your statement:

"I meant that Matthew and Luke were independently written by separate authors at different times -- potentially including information from earlier source material -- not the results of various edits of the sources over time."

Now if you read my quote, it points to the text in Wikipedia that notes that "the majority opinion among scholars is" "that Matthew and Luke both used [Mark's Gospel] and the "sayings gospel"" "as their basic sources."

I don't claim that "everybody" believes that, I don't claim that Wikipedia itself is a proof, or always right. The quote I've selected, however, matches the information I have, and that is that majority of scholars believe that the basis for both Matthew's and Luke's is Mark's and "the sayings." I've never considered Wikipedia as a "proof" but only as a pointer for something that is written in the real books and articles about the topic.

I've just read your claim "independently wrote" and "potentially including earlier sources" and recognized that your claim doesn't match what I understand is the majority opinion opinion of the Gospel scholars (not "potentially" but that the basic source is Mark's), which you maybe haven't been aware of, and you could be interested to know about. So I've quoted the first entry that I stumbled to, not knowing how detailed Wikipedia is. And it is actually more detailed, this entry, for example, is the whole only about what is again claimed to be a "preferred by an overwhelming majority of critically trained New Testament scholars" as an answer to the so-called "synoptic problem":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-source_hypothesis

"The Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke were based on the Gospel of Mark and a hypothetical sayings collection from the Christian oral tradition called Q." It's surely not a proof by itself for anything but it links to more primary sources and also to the other opinions, which are claimed to be a minority ones.

The Gospels and most of the rest of the New Testament most likely existed in the form we have them today by the end of the first century. The collection as a whole was most likely standardized by the middle of the second century.

Then we got a collection of different people arguing mostly from what they just read on wikipedia.

The problem is that you and the other 2 people commenting don't seem to understand that I'm not saying that many Biblical scholars don't believe that Matthew and Luke used Mark and Q as sources. I'm arguing that most Biblical scholars believe they were written by 1 person each using Mark and Q, and other oral traditions as a source. As opposed to each being the end result of multiple edits made over the centuries.

>I've just read your claim "independently wrote"

I think you're mistaking my meaning of independently wrote. I mean that they were created independently of each other, by separate authors. I do not mean they are lacking any dependencies.

>"potentially including earlier sources"

I said potentially because no Biblical scholars are very certain of any of their hypotheses. Biblical criticism is not a science and most New Testament scholar would tell you that they believe that the 2 source hypothesis merely the most likely.

Most computer scientists believe that P != NP, but if I told you that "potentially P!=NP", you wouldn't take that to mean that I believe most computer scientists believe it does.

As to whether Matthew and Luke were based on Mark and Q, the current most accepted theory is that they were. However as I said before Biblical scholarship is an art not a science. The 2 source theory is currently fashionable, but there are many reasonable arguments against the 2 source theory and many scholars that do not agree with it.

However, again majority of these other scholars and the other theories that you refer to still claim that the synoptic gospels aren't "independently" written, that is, that they weren't written only on "oral traditions." The scholars are aware that arguing only "oral tradition" implies even more "edits" and "inventions" over the time between the events happened and were written, that is, that they'd have to assume that a direct "intervention from God" prevented "the Chinese whispers" effect that would ensue. And that the scholars can't believe because if it were so until the point the texts were written the first time, it would have continued to be even more so afterwards and they know it isn't so.

That's why I've entered the discussion, because I'm really not aware of scholars that would even use your choice of words. You can of course say that you personally don't even have to believe what any of scholars claim, and I wouldn't have reacted were it obvious for me that your argument is based purely on your faith, as in you having a "strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction" rather than using a scientific approach. Again, I'm not aware of scholars that openly argue only from their "spiritual position" who are even accepted as being scholars from the rest of them. Because if "God made it intentionally so with all these errors and inconsistencies" all their efforts are in vain, and there's no point to even discuss.

There are actually mainstream Biblical scholars who propose that all 4 gospels were written mostly independently of each other based mainly on oral tradition.

The argument is that Jewish society at the time transmitted information primarily orally, oral tradition was regarded as more accurate than written sources. The argument goes that they were very practiced in transmitting stories without changes and had been doing so for generations. The gospels were all written within living memory of Christ's life. We're not talking about hundreds of years.

There are also Biblical scholars who believe that Luke was based on eyewitness accounts through interviews both written and oral. These Biblical scholars usually are usually also Christian, but in their academic works aren't arguing from a "spiritual position".

My personal opinion, based on reading many sources on this topic, is that it's likely that Luke combined early written accounts from Mark and other sources with witness interviews to produce his gospel.

"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught."

Not really. Christianity is defined by the teachings of Christ "as we know them".

If Christ existed, but had e.g. completely different teachings, then it would be irrelevant to know them (as pertaining to Christianity).

(It would be interesting to know them, of course, but it wouldn't be the "real Christianity". Christianity is defined by its history: the scripts it was based upon, and what the churches calling themselves christian did.).

That's because Christianity caught on and was adopted for the specific message we know. Not just because some Christ person spoke those things, but for their content (as we know it).

It's just like if someone comes and says "the real KFC recipe by the kernel is actually with marmalade and fish-oil". Even if that's true, what KFC is to people is what they've known to eat for all those decades, not merely a generic placeholder than can hold any value as long as it proves to be more historically accurate than the previous.

So the "teaching of Jesus as we know them" is a human construct only remotely rooted in what the actual Jesus might have thought or said, and therefore has nothing special (magical) compared to, say, Buddhism.

I agree with most of your argument, and it's pretty similar to what I wrote. But:

> Not really. Christianity is defined by the teachings of Christ "as we know them".

How do you define "as we know them?"

It seems to me that you're supposing that there's some "overall message" to Christianity that exists within the modern population of Christians. I don't agree with this, and I see no coherent way to discover what that message would be. But if you want to define a religion in this way, you have to take on that task.

I think that Christianity should be defined by "what is practiced as Christianity today," within each community that sees itself as Christian. Therefore, my argument goes, there isn't a single coherent "Christendom." Instead, there exists a highly fragmented population of Christians, across which practices and beliefs significantly differ. My argument is that none of these Christian communities is any more correct than the others.

I think that's a pretty mainstream interpretation of modern Christianity. I don't think I'm really reaching here.

No, I just mean "as we know them" as books -- the words in series. Not their interpretations.

The various churches and demoninations, yes, they are about the teachings of Christ as they "know them" (that is, they include their historically developed interpretation on top).

It is not. Scripture defines the teachings of Christ.

> Not only is there the issue of discovering what's been lost in translation, but also the existing texts have been heavily edited over the centuries. Entire books could have conceivably been lost. Forgeries could have been adopted.

This gets into an area called textual criticism. I'm half-asleep right now so hopefully what follows will make sense...

1. Consider for a moment that the Bible is the most validated work of antiquity that humanity possesses[1]. The thing is, if you can look at the evidence and yet say "we don't know" then you (in order to be consistent) have to admit that you basically "don't know" about anything that you don't have exact photocopies of the originals.

2. If you understand the Christian claims surrounding scripture (and here, importantly is preservation) then you must understand that that doubt you have doesn't exist within our beliefs.

3. Based on what I understand, the Bible was essentially transmitted through time using something that instantly brought to mind the idea of bittorrent. We actually know when and where changes were made and we have gotten back to the original text in all but a handful of instances. And in the instances where there is a textual variant—it doesn't change any of the doctrines or core tenants of the faith. There are thousands of copies of the Old and New Testaments that have been preserved. Some of these copies were done under the threat of death (persecution). Scribal errors can be found because we have so many.

BTW this stands in stark contrast with a book like the Quran which doesn't have sort of historical manuscript tradition. There were likely changes to the Quran by Uthman but we don't know what they were because they were destroyed... so keep that in mind.

> Even if you disregard all that, is there really an objectively correct way to read Christian (or any) scripture? I'd say no.

Sure there is. Jesus makes claims you either have to accept or reject. There is a very clear line.

[1]: https://carm.org/manuscript-evidence

This is the main point; they do not. The manuscripts at best describe the teachings of different sects of early christianity invoking the authority of christ for validation. That's why they contradict so much and that is why there are so many. Even an actual "original" manuscript cannot change that.

For most notable events in history we have much more evidence than just text. Caesars writings may not have the same scrutiny but we've got coins with his face on them from around Europe. Christianity had little impact on the world for the first couple of centuries.

I'm not even sure what an "actual christian" would be because the books that make up the christian faith contradict themselves all over the place. You could even make arguments that some of the books are false or that some of the apocryphal books are real.

Because there is no factual bedrock underlying religion there is no truth to be found and anyone can just claim anything and ascribe it to whatever religion they want for the most part.

Rather, No True Scotsman requires that someone change their definition to exclude counterexamples while maintaining that they're keeping an untainted definition.

It's entirely legitimate to say "There are people who call themselves Christians but do not act in accordance with X, Y, and Z teachings of Christ. Therefore, I don't accept their claim." That's definition, not redefinition.

As in "yeah, those people only _claim_ to be christian, they're not _actual_ christians". It's a textbook example of No True Scotsman.

The idea that there is only one kind of christian died the moment that Mr Iscariot did his friend a bad one. Ever since then, there's been schism after schism after schism. Even Peter and Paul saw and did things differently. In the modern day, we're talking about rivalries so deep that even moving a ladder[1] is proven impossible, so how "they're only _claiming_ to be christians, and aren't _actually_ christians" passes muster, I don't know. These are the heads of christian sects going back more than a millenium, who disagree on what it means to be christian. Folks who are in charge of multiple large houses of worship, with large congregations that see them as their christian guides... but somehow "oh, I don't think they see it right, therefore 'not christian'"?

"No True Scotsman" is perfectly appropriate.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immovable_Ladder

Seemingly contradict. Have you reviewed what the other side has to say[1] on this matter? Ever had something that didn't seem to make sense until you saw a different perspective on it?

> You could even make arguments that some of the books are false or that some of the apocryphal books are real.

Physical presence of a book doesn't make it scripture. And that's exactly what Christians believe the Bible is: scripture. And it is held to a very different set of standards than what is not scripture.

> Because there is no factual bedrock underlying religion there is no truth to be found and anyone can just claim anything and ascribe it to whatever religion they want for the most part.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "no factual bedrock". You and I exist. We have these things called "logic", "reason", and "truth" which cannot be explained in a solely materialistic fashion. There are things such as "ethics" and "morality" which not only exist but a surprising amount of people adhere to. Christians make the claim that the only reason any of this makes sense is because we are created by God and that it is His design and decree which allow us to understand the world around us. No secular/nontheistic worldview can truly offer a response to this that doesn't look to itself.

[1]: http://defendinginerrancy.com/contradictions-inerrancy/

Not all christians agree on what is and isn't in the bible. There is no single Christian bible. I have no doubt there are some sects out there that don't have a bible, for a couple of hundred years no christians did.

And then we could probably have a reasonable conversation about it.

Because nothing is supported by provable factual truth anyone can claim anything.

Unlike math/science where you can actually provide evidence and proofs, religion is more about who has the loudest voice to spread their dogma.

I'm not sure a ministry is the most impartial source in the first place, in the part I've watched he even lists secular biblical scholars as an attack on christianity.

I found this to be a very interesting link, but probably for a different reason than you did. It's an interesting very wide circular argument. It describes a group of people studying a book in so much detail they decide to agree that the book must be true in every aspect. It goes to the level of "the book describes how the book should be read, therefore we must interpret it in that way". (paraphrasing "appeal to extra-biblical genre is contrary to inerrancy")

The weird thing about that whole idea is that you could find a group of people to say that about any book. Make them known for studying that book and they immediately gain the book-interpreting credentials. Whether the bible or any other book is completely true or not, this way of arguing any case about anything seems bonkers to me. Why not just say "ICBI believes that..." rather than "The contention of some contemporary NT scholars that there are contradictions in Scripture is both illogical and unbiblical."

There are some contradictions but claiming that it's all over the place is a blanket statement. And do not forget that while the Bible contains the ancient scriptures, they should be seen in the light of the Gospel (i.e. what Jesus supposedly said about them) rather than on their own, in Christianism.

Another complicating factor is the existence of highly syncretic forms of religion. Are Manichaeism (a Gnostic religion, which is to something that's vaguely syncretic of both Christianity and Zoroastrianism) and Druze (a Christian-Gnostic-Muslim syncretism) Christians or not?

Furthermore, an interesting facet of history is that religions tend to attack heretics far more than they attack heathens. This does seem to continue to the modern day--if you consider atheism to be a religion, then agnosticism (being noncommittal as to the existence of god) is a natural "heresy" of that "religion"--and militant atheists like Dawkins reserve even more anger for agnostics than for Christians.

> Another complicating factor is the existence of highly syncretic forms of religion. Are Manichaeism (a Gnostic religion, which is to something that's vaguely syncretic of both Christianity and Zoroastrianism) and Druze (a Christian-Gnostic-Muslim syncretism) Christians or not?

Why is this complicated? Again, if I call myself something but yet plainly reject or outright act in a manner that goes against the stated doctrines then I am clearly not what I claim.

Examples: Cath olicism: Rejects the finished work of Christ by replacing the old sacrifices with a new one (the mass). (Read Hebrews 10). Teaches that man's sin is imputed to them (against what Romans teaches).

Mormonism: Actually the most polytheistic religion in the world. (Since there are in an infinite number of gods.)

Nestorianism: Confuses Jesus' being and goes against the council of Nicaea. Condemned at two church councils as heresy.

> Furthermore, an interesting facet of history is that religions tend to attack heretics far more than they attack heathens. This does seem to continue to the modern day--if you consider atheism to be a religion, then agnosticism (being noncommittal as to the existence of god) is a natural "heresy" of that "religion"--and militant atheists like Dawkins reserve even more anger for agnostics than for Christians.

I'm glad you at least acknowledge this. I steal Mohler's term of "worldview" when describing atheism—but in practically every way you have a religion in atheism: you are the god, you have a way of viewing the world, you have "holy books" written by people such as Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens... you get the idea.

But yes, it makes sense. I care far more what other people get wrong about my faith who claim to be like me but are not rather than people who don't make that claim...

While I can't speak for all atheists, I'd suggest that you may be grasping a bit here. Atheists that I've met don't consider themselves a / the god. Having an understanding or a view of the world doesn't require or imply religion. Atheists don't consider any texts to be holy, let alone those written by people proclaiming loudest that there are no holy texts.

This idea is extraordinarily seductive, as much as any religion. Personally I think it's complete bullshit. I simply refuse to believe that I am the highest power or intelligence or consciousness in any realm. I am not God.

> If I don't believe in any kind of higher power, then by definition humanity is the highest power ...

We may need to start defining some terms here. Power, for starters. Lots of things in my life have power - government, partner, family, wall sockets. I'm not sure any of them could be considered 'highest', especially in the sense that Christians may use that word -- whereby it's an entity (power) that created all other powers, and therefore has ultimate, unassailable power.

> and more specifically, I am the highest power in my own life.

Clearly this isn't the case. (Mind, this does not equate to: 'Therefore, god(s)')

> Atheism is a faith that elevates Me to the status of God in my experience of life.

Another word to define -- faith. If you're using it in a sense akin to 'believing in something without any evidence', then atheists tend to eschew the concept and practice of faith.

Conflating the word 'faith' in the way that religious people use it to defend why they think something that they can't adequately substantiate, with the reasons that atheists think there probably isn't a god, is disingenuous.

Um, I think that was exactly my point. You don't recognize the existence of consciousness or intelligence that is either greater than or antecedent to yours. Obviously I'm speaking of "power" in the religious sense, not in a legal or political sense. You are subject, ultimately, only to your own judgment. For what reason would any other representative of the human species be fit to judge you on a moral basis, or to contemplate your use or purpose for existing, other than that you have chosen to submit to such judgment? That choice and burden is yours alone. You are your own god. Denying that much celebrated aspect of atheism is what's disingenuous.

I know many atheists are greatly offended by the use of the word "faith" to describe the conviction that humans are the very apex of intelligence/consciousness, and that we and the universe that contains us can't have been designed and coded by another intelligent force. What evidence can there possibly be for or against this conviction, even if only lightly held (which would make you more of an agnostic than an atheist)? And given that, what else is there beside faith to guide either one of us?

Well that's not true.

I've met a number of people that I have determined have a greater intelligence than me -- and that number shoots up once you include people who I know only through their work.

On a slightly fuzzier front, I know people with laudable ethics / morals that may indeed surpass my own working set.

There's nothing supernatural about that assessment.

And I don't think I'm subject exclusively to my own judgement.

Speculating on the 'use or purpose for existing' pre-supposes that such a use or purpose exists, or rather, that there is a requirement that it exists (as an externality to myself or otherwise) with an implication that absent such an externally-provided use or purpose, we'd be stuck, twiddling our opposable thumbs, with nothing useful or interesting to do.

> I know many atheists are greatly offended by the use of the word "faith" to describe the conviction that humans are the very apex of intelligence/consciousness ...

This may be attributable to atheists tending to be well-informed on evolution -- consequently inclined to twitch at this assertion. At the least, we'd want to insert an 'as of right now' after the word 'apex'.

The idea that humans are the very apex and there is no further progress / evolution to be had is very much the required position of a theist, and not how atheists tend to view the world.

> ... and that we and the universe that contains us can't have been designed and coded by another intelligent force.

I think most atheists (again, I really can't be speaking for them all) don't say it can't, just that it's spectacularly unlikely that it was.

Just from a statistical angle, given there have been some tens of thousands of religions generated over the millennia, the chance of any given religion being the right one is low.

As noted by TFA, the history of this religion (and of course it's not unique in this regard) being plagued by logical incongruities & inconsistencies, borrowing heavily from early mythologies, having minimal corroborating evidence, etc -- it doesn't increase the odds of being more right than the rest.

> And given that, what else is there beside faith to guide either one of us?

Heh! I think at this point I'm going to have to defer to Stephen Roberts[1]

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

[1] http://freelink.wildlink.com/quote_history.php

"Higher consciousness" does not refer to one of your smarter friends or coworkers. Unless you're a Scientologist, I presume you don't view other humans as deities/gods of any kind.

> The idea that humans are the very apex and there is no further progress / evolution to be had is very much the required position of a theist

Nonsense. There is no conflict with evolution in a deliberately created world. It's no different from any other complex mechanism. Folks who say otherwise, religious or not, are manufacturing conflict.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you brought evolution into this. It has nothing to do with any of my arguments. By "apex" I'm referring to humanity's place as the highest most powerful consciousness. Again, a hierarchy in the sense that does not admit your smarter friends to a higher level than you.

> the history of this religion (and of course it's not unique in this regard) being plagued by logical incongruities & inconsistencies, ...

Yes, quite, completely agree, and the sordid history of religion has nothing to do with my nagging suspicion that you and I are not the highest representative type of consciousness in the universe.

I mean, damn man, look at yourself. Your passions, your force of will, your sense of humor. The sense of self, whatever it is, that makes you think there's a "you", which separates you from the apes that just look like us, and which compels you to discuss philosophy on Hacker News. You think that shit is accidental? Your brain and body, which provide the seat for consciousness and the machinery to navigate your environment -- those things don't demand an explanation beyond, "it just happened"? The existence of a mechanism that allows those things to have evolved from a primordial soup of small organic molecules... doesn't that make you the least bit suspicious that there is a higher intelligent creative force at work?

Or are you able to just say, "hey, it's just the multiverse, it was bound to happen"? Serious question. I'm not just being snarky.

You originally said:

> Atheism is a faith that elevates Me to the status of God ...

That's what I railed against. It assumes that once you've determined there's probably no gods, that you then have a gap that needs filling. I don't expect any atheists think that way.

Interesting reference to scientology and humans as deities - given, again, the TFA was all about the presence of Jesus in human form, plus the confusion and splintering within the church that the rather clumsy construct of the trinity caused.

I mentioned evolution because you suggested that atheists think that we (humans) are the apex. Once you understand evolution you realise there's no direction, and certainly no stable state, let alone ultimate apex. Humans have been on the planet for such a tiny amount of time, and there's nothing to suggest that we're the best thing that the evolutionary process can generate.

Yes, as you say, we're the most powerful consciousness on this planet right now -- but that's like those towns that have signs attesting that they have "the longest single span bridge ... crossing an east-west river ... that has a w in its name ... in the southern hemisphere ... built before 1857".

That is, it's such an exuberantly qualified assertion that, while true, it's more distracting than useful. We may well not be the most powerful consciousness in the universe, and we're almost certainly not going to be the most powerful consciousness ever to have lived once everything wraps up.

And no, as above, I don't think 'it was bound to happen', as that implies an intent to achieve the current state of the universe. It did happen, and that's a sufficiently fascinating situation to keep us busy.

As to your last question -- I think saying 'it just happened' is to give up on some potentially very interesting lines of enquiry. But I don't think it's necessary to invoke a 'higher intelligent creative force' to address any questions around the process. In any case, you then have to contend with the problem I mentioned in my last reply -- if you do think a higher intelligent creative force is necessary to explain whatever gaps remain today, how do you confidently pick the right one from the myriad religions available?. Wikipedia suggests there's around 4,200 religions.

Also without trying to sound snarky, most religious people can't satisfactorily address this one. AFAICT most people inherit their religious beliefs from their parents, and that doesn't set off as many alarm bells for them as I would expect.

EDIT: Forgot to address this bit:

> Nonsense. There is no conflict with evolution in a deliberately created world. It's no different from any other complex mechanism. Folks who say otherwise, religious or not, are manufacturing conflict.

My understanding is that there is a conflict, at least with some religious people / religions.

First, the obvious one -- evolution denies the Adam & Eve myth, which then precludes original sin, which then renders the salvation story somewhat irrelevant.

Second, in Christian scripture it's asserted that humans (well, man) was made in the image of the deity. So, if we either voluntarily architect ourselves or evolve naturally into something different, several possible implications ensue, including: we were evidently not made as good as we could/should have been, which suggests the image was not optimum, and/or the deity will be upset that we aren't happy with the image we were made in.

> Yes, as you say, we're the most powerful consciousness on this planet right now

That's not really what I'm driving at, for that misses the point that I've been trying to defend on behalf of nvahalik. What I'm saying is that by necessity you are the most powerful consciousness in your own life. Same would be true for me were I not a believer. Society may judge and punish deeds that disregard social norms. My friends and acquaintances may value me more or less, colored by their own human experience. My family may need me, for a time.

But if I'm my own boss, then all these folks can go fuck themselves as soon as I become grumpy about their involvement in my life. They are, after all, hairless apes just like me, arisen from and destined to be dust just as I am. As an atheist, you are your own authority/judge/prescriptor/appraiser/lover/whateverer. You may generously entertain your fellow apes' performance of these roles if it suits you. But that choice belongs to you alone. You are your own beginning and end. You are Tom Cruise.

My belief in a creator relieves me of that burden. I rest easy in the confidence that I was created by and live in the quiet presence of a force whose intelligence is transcendentally beyond mine, and yet not totally alien from me either, for I have been assured that, as you say, we are created in the image of God. Not physically; the hairless ape bodies are temporary vessels. But as I alluded to before, your passions, sense of humor, your love of soft furry animals -- these are things that your creator understands. Care was taken in your design and manufacture. It's obvious to me, anyway, that some serious fucking care was taken, one way or another, to give rise to you, a creature with a sense of self and desire to talk religion on the internet.

> And no, as above, I don't think 'it was bound to happen', as that implies an intent to achieve the current state of the universe.

Very well put. I personally feel that intent is overwhelming implied, if not brazenly avowed, by the preposterously complex and beautifully engineered results. If see more than three rocks stacked atop one another while hiking, I know with near certainty that an intelligent being (another hiker) built the structure to mark the trail. It boggles my mind that anyone can entertain lack of intent in the rise of The Whole Fucking Universe, with all of its stacked rocks, furry animals, and sentient self-aware beings.

Original sin and the creation myth and all that... I don't know, and I don't care. I know some do care, but they're the minority, albeit the loudest minority. Here's a trick for when you meet one of them: ask them if they'd still have any use for Christ's mercy if the creation myth were not literally true. That ought to shut them up.

As to why I chose the message of Jesus for my own faith... it probably helps that my family is nominally Christian. But I also really believe myself to have enough objectivity and an open enough mind to chose freely. I've shopped around, and the message of Christ is only one I've found that puts no burden on me whatsoever to earn my way. In fact, Jesus makes it quite plain that we can't earn anything by deeds, and that our only choice is take our salvation as a free gift. Obviously you have to believe in the giver, and once that really sinks in, it's impossible not to love the giver of such a gift with your whole heart, which ends up being the meat of Jesus' response when he was asked what we need to do to be redeemed. The rest of the new testament has a lot of good advice about how to live life, IMO. But there are plenty of believers who have no access to a bible, and a God of mercy and love takes them too.

> I think saying 'it just happened' is to give up on some potentially very interesting lines of enquiry. But I don't think it's necessary to invoke a 'higher intelligent creative force' to address any questions around the process.

I'm genuinely interested to know what alternatives you like. What you would invoke instead of a higher intelligent creative force?

and

> As to why I chose the message of Jesus for my own faith... it probably helps that my family is nominally Christian.

You say that you shopped around, but I'm curious what that actually means -- how many of the 4000+ religions you explored, how deep the exploration and experiences were in comparison to the first 10-20 years of your life of being exposed exclusively to your parents' branch of Christianity.

I don't understand the '[Christianity is the only] religion that puts no burden on me to earn my way' bit either -- can you explain that differently please?

Now, please don't compare me to Tom Cruise. ; )

I think I've misunderstood something about my position of not needing a higher power to explain the universe, or to delegate (abrogate?) ultimate responsibility of my actions to. I think I now understand -- this is not something you think is possible for anyone (or perhaps just 'reasonable for a thoughtful person') to think -- would that be a fair statement? There's been a few comments you've made around this subject, that I've carelessly overlooked, so I apologise for not being clearer on this earlier.

When you ask about alternatives to invoke instead of a 'higher intelligent creative force', I'm at a loss. I have no alternatives (beyond nature, or what's observed, etc) but more importantly I don't feel a need for them. I've always assumed all atheists think this way. But I've never considered that theists might assume that atheists are plagued by some kind of sensation - doubt, fear, a feeling of absence or missing something profoundly important - because of this.

With regards the 'complexity implies intent' argument -- how do you reconcile that with the observation that plenty of other people see the same levels of complexity but come to a different conclusion?

Tangential to the question of the gap sensation ... you mentioned:

> But there are plenty of believers who have no access to a bible, and a God of mercy and love takes them too.

Are you talking about people who have never been exposed to Christianity? I recall a droll (though likely apocryphal) quote where someone disappointedly asks "So if you'd never told me about Jesus, I'd definitely go to heaven? Why did you tell me then?"

For people who aren't exposed to the Bible (I'm including the ~100,000 years of humans as we'd recognise them) do you feel that they would have felt a higher power was self-evident from complexity, and/or needed an explanation beyond their own (physical) observations & experiences, and/or had a similar conviction to their local gods as you do to yours? Had you been born into a time & culture that worshipped, say, Zeus, what belief system do you think you would have had as an adult?

I expect neither of us is likely to fundamentally change, and that I've turned this into a 'I'm a Christian - AMA!' (sorry! :)

Complexity implies intent. The funny thing is that everyone really does agree with this, except when the discussion is ontic in nature. To take an example from Carl Sagan (yes, I know), if we were to detect a radio signal from deep space that counts prime numbers, then there would 100% unanimous agreement that it's of intelligent origin. I'm puzzled as to why folks are willing to extend assumption of intelligence only to our "peers" in the universe (i.e. aliens), but not to any kind of higher creative force responsible for the very existence of both us and those peers.

In other words, absolutely everyone agrees that a machine that transmits prime numbers must have an intelligent designer, and yet some folks say that a FAR more complex machine (such as evolution, or your conscious brain) must not.

> I'm at a loss. I have no alternatives (beyond nature, or what's observed, etc)

Beyond nature? Where did this observable nature come from? Some people dismiss that question as though "nature" is just like arithmetic; one thing naturally leads to another, and here we are! That's insane to me. Why for example are the universe's fundamental physical constants set at the exact values needed to allow "one thing to lead to another"? At this point, a fashionable atheist will inevitably invoke the multiverse and some flavor of the anthropic principle, which naturally leads me back around to same kind of question: where did the fucking multiverse come from? Ultimately there are only two possible answers; either the universe was somehow "intended", or it's turtles all the way down.

> how do you reconcile that with the observation that plenty of other people see the same levels of complexity but come to a different conclusion?

My rather patronizing explanation is that the emotional baggage that often burdens notions of theology makes fertile ground for cognitive disconnect (on both sides of course). I suspect you disagree with regard to your reasoning. :) What am I missing?

> ...this is not something you think is possible for anyone (or perhaps just 'reasonable for a thoughtful person') to think -- would that be a fair statement?

No, I know you believe that, and I don't judge it. My rather too subtle and maybe not useful point is that whatever roles God plays in a religious person's life, those roles must necessarily be played by yourself (or whatever fellow humans you choose). Even if you have no use for those roles, that judgment and the choice to leave them unattended are yours alone; there is no "higher power" for you to appeal to that isn't made of flesh and blood. I understand why atheists dislike this whole notion, and it's not a hill I'll die defending.

> I've never considered that theists might assume that atheists are plagued by some kind of sensation - doubt, fear, a feeling of absence or missing something profoundly important - because of this.

In fact this assumption is central to many Christians' belief system. I find it to be terribly presumptuous and judgmental, but it's ubiquitous. The idea is that non-believers must be defiant, otherwise how is their punishment justified? Same argument goes for the need for forgiveness or redemption. I feel a need for forgiveness from my creator deeply and innately, but I have no idea how I got there, and there's little chance of ever evangelizing someone else into the same conviction. It's not a matter of self esteem; for me it's disappointment at so often falling short of the purposes for which I was created.

> Had you been born into a time & culture that worshipped, say, Zeus, what belief system do you think you would have had as an adult?

That's an excellent question that totally summarizes your point in the prior paragraphs. If my strong tendencies in my current context are any indication, I'd like to believe that I'd still be interested in being a good person, and that the criteria for doing so were such by the authority of a greater being that created me, and that this would secure my redemption just as it does today. BTW this is a very biblical idea, supported in Jesus' own words (can cite and discuss if you want).

> You say that you shopped around

Well, that was a bit tongue-in-cheek, and it should probably be taken just as casually as I put it. I have been exposed to the ideas of all of the major faith systems (There aren't really 4000 religions; that figure counts all of the minor variations of a very limited number of major religions). I've been struggling with this stuff since I was 10 years old --my first existential crisis, the first of many. But I ain't no religious scholar, and as dragonwriter pointed on elsewhere in this discussion thread, I remain greatly ignorant of important details.

> I don't understand the '[Christianity is the only] religion that puts no burden on me to earn my way' bit either -- can you explain that differently please?

Let me think about how to phrase it differently than in paragraph surrounding that bit.

Ooookay, but the problem there is the proverbial god of gaps challenge. Right now we don't know the full details for big bang -> solar-system style aggregation -> goldilocks planets -> amino acids -> RNA -> DNA -> complex multicelullar lifeforms ... though some of the steps within are speculated about with some good degrees of confidence.

Either way, previously non-secular types would attest that spontaneous generation of maggots was only explainable by gods ... and before that, thunder, lightning, spring growth, autumn harvest, eyeball, eclipse, flagella, laryngeal nerve, and so on.

You seem to be suggesting that evolution currently sits entirely within the unexplained category, despite very little about evolution not being understood or explained by epistemological observation.

I'm drawn to a Richard Dawkins quote[2] - viz: "Evolution is almost universally accepted by those who understand it, almost universally rejected by those who don't." It's a slightly pithy quote, but all the best quotes are. :)

Either way, yes, I concur that if we got a clear radio signal from a remote planet that indicated some signs of intelligence, the thoughtful conclusion would be that there was an intelligence at the originating end of that.

On the other hand, if we had multiple disparate and/or plagiaristic books written some decades after the alleged existence of a man claiming (perhaps posthumously) to be a god, whose activities in life aren't correlated by any historians of the day, whose teachings provide no insights into our world that weren't already understood by contemporary humans, includes some parochial (eg stars falling to the earth) misunderstandings of the universe, and offering guides on (for example) how to manage your slaves ... that this isn't necessarily in the same ballpark as prime numbers from a distant galaxy.

To be candid, it worries me that we may be disagreeing over the import and relevance of this, because it means we really have no common base on which to continue a dialog.

Somewhat similarly, I'm not going to cop-out with the anthropomorphic universe, other than to draw the usual analogy to the puddle that finds itself in a hole perfectly shaped to fit itself, and concluding the hole was designed for it.

Obviously we're suited to this universe, with the various fundamental physical constants (etc) that this universe entails.

But ... as I've said before, if you can't explain something today it doesn't mean a god was involved (or, as you put it, that the universe was 'intended').

Let alone that a specific - in this case Christian deity - was responsible.

All you've done there -- similar to your 'turtles all the way down' disparagement -- is to suggest that there's some (no-evidence-for) metaphysical explanation, and asserted that the clear winner is the religion you happen to have acquired. (Yes, I know we spoke of this before, and you mentioned in passing that you were tongue-in-cheek about shopping around, but there's a LOT of religions that have previously out-numbered in absolute and/or relative numbers Christians today. My concerns on this front still stand -- most people inherit their religion, and they may rationalise that using whatever conveniences are to hand, but it doesn't detract from the fact that almost all religious people reflect the beliefs that they were indoctrinated with as a child. There's some good research on the evolutionary benefits (survival trait) for children to believe everything their parents tell them, long before they acquire critical thinking skills.)

As Hitchens observed on this front -- we can conservatively speculate that humans existed (in a form we'd recognise as humans) for around 100,000 years BC (if you will), and during all that time of suffering no intervention from an omnipresent god. Then (and rather than popping into a more advanced civilisation (China, say)) there was a guy who may not have actually existed, claiming (and perhaps only after the fact, and by proxy, and fairly inconsistently when you compare Mark and Luke[3]) to meet some Jewish prophecies, was purported to arrive to solve this problem of suffering. However, suffering continues in pretty much the same ways that it did pre-JC.

> I feel a need for forgiveness from my creator deeply and innately, but I have no idea how I got there ...

I really have no idea on how I could, let alone should, respond to that. It clearly reflects a fundamental disparity in the way that we view the world. I have a feeling that we could never reconcile it without compromising our belief / understanding frameworks.

> ... I'd like to believe that I'd still be interested in being a good person ...

Trying not to quote you out of context.

I think we're all (for large but perhaps not 100% inclusive values of) interested in being good people.

Long before Spacey, K. was pretending to be a lunatic US president (and long before it was fashionable to play such a role in real life) he was in a massively under-rated film called K-Pax. (Not just a grossly under-rated film, but few people know that Gene Brewer wrote 3 sequels to that story ... all wonderful reads.)

Anyhoo, there's a lovely comment that Prot makes in the first film / book: 'Every being in the universe knows right from wrong'.

I have zero evidence for it, but I tend to think it makes sense in the context of a larger (say, galactic-sized) culture -- once you've evolved sufficiently to abstract yourself into another being's position, it's (relatively) easy to identify right from wrong.

At the most basic it's the reciprocity law -- do unto others, if you will. It predates JC's teachings by at least 500 years, documented in China, and the idea almost definitely existed as a proposition for a happy society before that, and in multiple other locations. It's not a particularly difficult idea to come up with, I think (though that's said with the benefit of having other people previously come up with it).

Btw, I'm hugely appreciative of the time, effort, and thought you put into this - even if I may (I suspect) appear massively disparaging. As noted before, I'm obviously not about to change my position, nor are you likely to. I chuckled out loud at the 'What am I missing?' comment - and genuinely delight in your comments, your understanding of my viewpoint, and regret that at some point HN is going to lock this thread to read-only.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation

[2] http://i.imgur.com/SP2qd.jpg

[3] http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/genealogy-luke.html

Probably because there's more Christian sects than there are flavours of ice cream. All with different beliefs.

To me, Christianity is synonymous with Orthodox Christianity, but for the typical American 'Christian' it's probably some flavour of Protestant Evangelicalism...

Different customs and perhaps some different interpretations, but if you believe something different (e.g. that deviates from or adds to scripture) then objectively you have a different basis and therefore a different faith.

I'd encourage you to watch some of the debates by James White[1] (yes, those are links to purchase, but if you check the podcast feed/blog they link to YouTube videos of many of the debates. What you'll clearly see in many of those debates is how the arguments of one side breaks down. I can't see how any reasonable observer could watch a handful of those debates and not be at least open to if not convinced that perhaps some of what these "different beliefs" offer isn't real Christianity, but something dressed up as such.

I do believe that there are very small number of _actual_ Christians in the US. Definitely not the 70-ish% from Pew[1]. Maybe 5-10%. Probably even less.

[1]: http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2011/01/19/available-d... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

Anyhow, I don't care to argue specifics, only to point out that as everyone thinks their version is correct, and there's many versions out there, it's difficult to say what a 'real' Christian believes, assuming one is charitable enough to consider sects other than one's own as 'Christian'.

I wasn't trying to list types of Christians, merely pointing out that, to a typical American Christian, evangelicalism is synonymous with Christianity. I also missed the Lutherans, Anglicans, and a bunch of others.

Edit - should add, Orthodox consider any church 'in communion' with the rest to be the same church. So Russian, Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Romanian Orthodox churches, as well as the Patriarchates of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople, as well as a bunch I'm missing and too lazy to Google, all consider each other to be the same church. Imagine the Catholic church but with a dozen or more 'Popes', all more or less equal (I say more or less because the larger churches often wield more influence, even if they don't officially have more authority).

Christians have been fighting over that for as long as there's been Christians. I'm not convinced the word is in any way useful.

At the end of the day even though we might call ourselves different types of Christians based on the traditions and non-essentials that we hold to, there are still Christians from every tribe, tongue, and nation that are united by Christ... and Christian is really only the word I can think of that makes sense.

About the only way you can group all Christians together is that they believe a Christ of some form existed. But that definition is loose enough to include atheists, muslims and others.

Humans have the ability to use context and reason to determine what a person means when they say they are a Christian. 99.9% of the time such a person person means that they are a follower of Jesus Christ and that they believe Jesus Christ to be the son of God.

Of course there will be disagreements on the exact definition, their are disagreements on the exact definition of the word programmer. That doesn't stop it from being a useful word. Any label has exceptions.

But this itself is devoid of meaning. Many people say they follow christ but may have completely different beliefs on what that means. Even believing the son of god is not universal among Christians.

These aren't just blurred lines, it's more like saying a car mechanic, an airline pilot and a web developer are all programmers.

It is nearly universal--universal enough to be useful. If someone says they are a Christian, absent any other knowledge, you can be very confident that they mean that Jesus Christ is the son of God. Obviously not 100% confident, but confident enough to proceed with that assumption in most cases.

I could say that a car mechanic, a pilot, and a web developer are all skilled trades. That doesn't make the term skilled trade meaningless, it just makes it less specific. "Christian" is a very broad classifier and it is about as useful as any other broad classifier. It lacks specifics, but language is recursive--I can add as many extra identifiers as I like, e.g., Protestant Christian, Roman Catholic Christian, and Orthodox Christian.

I actually think it's more tolerant and consistent with reality to let each Christian define their own beliefs, and not to assume any single unifying belief.

Any attempt by me, to generalize about your beliefs, will be offensive to you. Straw man fallacy and all that. I won't have any means of knowing whether I'm right or wrong, without actually sharing in your beliefs. And if I agree to some set of beliefs, those might be offensive to the next Christian whom I talk to. And so forth.

Likewise, why would you agree to a description of your religion that casts it in a negative light?

All I really care about is how people treat one another. I have kind of a simple checklist for religions: How do they treat women? How do they deal with reproduction and sexuality? How do they deal with science? How do they treat doubters and non-believers?