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Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by aresant on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:04PM (#13545796)
If the original complaint is to be believed(1) - which Juror's found credible -the course of events, tldr was something like this:

- Zenimax bought ID software for >$100m(1) on June 24, 2009.

- Carmack signed up with Zenimax for an earn-out / golden-handcuffs agreement that ended in June of 2013.

- Carmack was enthralled with VR.

- Carmack found Palmer via an internet forum, reached out to get a rift to try.

- Carmack tinkered with the Rift, adding sensors, building calibration, etc. while on the clock / using hardware from zenimax.

- Carmack brought a prototype of the Rift working on Doom 3 to E3 with him providing Oculus with their early press.

- Zenimax realized the extent to which Carmack was enabling Oculus and worked to negotiate equity with Brendan Iribe.

- Oculus sent Zenimax a proposal to discuss a partnership Sept 21, 2012 but never followed up / followed through.

- Carmack quit Zenimax the day his contract was up in June 2013, joined Oculus as CTO a few months later and took his 5 best guys with him.

- FB bought Oculus March 2014, Zenmix got pissed and sued.

Clearly it's Carmack's genius that made this viable.

It's Carmack's video that lent credibility to the campaign.

And it's Carmack's original IP (Doom) that made the demos compelling.

It may be a weird system that Zenimax is entitled to $500m but since Carmack was an employee, under contract with Zenimax - who had paid >$100m to buy him / his IP - it sounds like this was a fair verdict.

(1) https://www.scribd.com/document/274211118/Judge-denies-Faceb...

(2) http://www.gamespot.com/articles/zenimax-raised-105-million-...

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by daenz on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:22PM (#13545982)
What in the world was Carmack doing, working on another company's project, using your current company's time and resources? Don't get me wrong, the guy is a genius, and I love nearly everything he has a hand in, but you would think that with his level of seniority, some alarm bells would have gone off in his head.
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by leggomylibro on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:34PM (#13546071)
Some alarm bells probably did go off, but they were probably silenced fairly quickly with something along the lines of, "but this is really cool and I want to work on it. Plus, it's not like my employer is actively working on a VR that I'd be competing with."

And at the end of the day, Carmack isn't the one who is out $500M, is he?

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by jMyles on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:50PM (#13546203)
In retrospect, he came out smelling like roses.
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by spatulon on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @06:03PM (#13546307)
He is personally out $150m, according to the article.
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by teej on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @06:12PM (#13546384)
The Variety article says Carmack but the TechCrunch article says Iribe. I'm having trouble finding the actual source.
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by k-t on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @09:09PM (#13547473)
The court documents say Iribe.

Carmack took his emails with him on a USB stick (which Zenimax's lawyer called "10,000 confidential documents") but the jury didn't award any damages for that.

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by Idontagree on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @06:10PM (#13546374)
That seems like a lot, I didn't think he was worth that much, maybe I'm undervaluing his net worth. Is there a value for that anywhere?
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by gpderetta on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @07:19PM (#13546832)
Well, he had to stop playing with rockets as he was running out of FU money...
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by stupidcar on Thursday February 02, 2017 @05:49AM (#13549597)
He presumably got a sizeable chunk of Oculus shares when he joined as CTO, and those would have been converted to a valuable amount of Facebook equity during the $3bn buyout.

Kind of irrelevant though, as the article is wrong, and it's actually Luckey and Iribe who are personally liable, and not Carmack.

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by JohnDotAwesome on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:49PM (#13546195)
There's a story in Masters of Doom where Carmack and Romero do just that. If I recall correctly, they would take company (Softdisk I believe) computers at night because they were more powerful than their home computers, and use them to develop their own games. I think they even worked on their own games on company time. I might be getting the details wrong on that one, but sounds like Carmack dgaf (or just doesn't think about how these things could potentially be wrong/misaligned).
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by Mizza on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @06:55PM (#13546681)
Carmack is way more of a badass punk than his demeanor makes him out to be. When he was 14, he got sentenced to a year in juvie for stealing his school's Apple IIs. He broke in using thermite. [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carmack#Early_life

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by cma on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @10:20PM (#13547834)
I believe they settled it by paying some royalties on Commander Keen.

A lot of times Carmack just wants to get shit done. At Oculus he has worked on both the Minecraft code and the Netflix code both for VR clients, both (I believe, I know for sure for Minecraft at least from some talks) with MS and Netflix retaining full ownership of the code.

Maybe they have some "off the record" agreements to avoid anti-trust--Minecraft still hasn't officially come to Vive.

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by Bamafan on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:02AM (#13548248)
They also made a number of "free" games that were published by SoftDisk. This was all pre-modern software era though. If that happened today, it would end up very similarly to how the Occulus case ended up.
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by jfolkins on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @06:06PM (#13546346)
LOVE THIS BOOK! And you are correct, they indeed "borrowed" the machines.
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by Zooper on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @07:06PM (#13546746)
I love how it's assumed, taken as axiom, instead of absurdity, that it's even possible for a company to own a individual's time and mind by contract.
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by deelowe on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @10:55PM (#13547970)
John was able to do the demo at E3 due to his employment at Zenimax, Carmack used company resources to work on the product, and Carmack was able to source talent from zenimax due to his employment at the company.

None of this has anything to do with Zenimax owning his "mind" or "time." It's about Carmack using company resources to enable Oculus. This becomes even more concerning when you consider that Carmack was one of their most senior, if not THE most senior engineer at the company. He's compensated handsomely under the assumption that any great ideas he has will end up with the company. This is similar to executive compensation strategies and carries with it very similar assumptions. The situation is a little more than some ordinary employee exploring their hobby and getting lucky.

This is like a CEO getting hired, being awarded a multi-hundred million dollar contract, not doing a single thing for the company that hired him, advertising for a competitor, leaving once his contract is up and also convincing numerous other executives to leave with him at the same time. That's extremely unethical in my opinion.

How much all that is worth is debatable, but the court seems to think it was worth $500M.

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by puranjay on Thursday February 02, 2017 @02:23AM (#13548777)
Yeah, people are forgetting that Carmack wasn't the janitor at Zeinmax; he was one of the biggest, if not THE biggest reason why Zeinmax acquired ID in the first place
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by jackmott on Thursday February 02, 2017 @01:01AM (#13548464)
he enabled Zenimax's game to run on an oculus.

zenimax didn't have a VR headset to sell, or plans to make one

Imagine if this story was about carmack getting access to a playstation 4, and helping improve it and doing a demo of Doom on PS4.

that...is what he is supposed to do!

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by sangnoir on Thursday February 02, 2017 @08:37AM (#13550373)
> Imagine if this story was about carmack getting access to a playstation 4, and helping improve it and doing a demo of Doom on PS4.

Your allegory is ending a bit too soon and missing some nuance: Imagine if this story was about carmack getting access to a Playstation 5 prototype, and helping improve it and doing a demo of Doom on PS 5. He then leaves Zenimax to work for Sony - on the PS 5

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by daenz on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @07:39PM (#13546972)
Believe me, I'm on your side about that. However, the reports stated he used company resources.
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by mingyeow on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @11:51PM (#13548205)
that was the conclusion i jumped to, but i realized that this is not actually the case if i read the details right.
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by erikpukinskis on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:10AM (#13548270)
What, like writing GLQuake for 3dfx cards?

He was a game programmer. He was porting his company's game to upcoming hardware. I fail to see what's even a tiny bit inappropriate about that.

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by sfifs on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @09:31PM (#13547589)
> What in the world was Carmack doing, working on another company's project, using your current company's time and resources?

The same thing he was doing when starting Id software working for another company a couple of decades ago.

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by nl on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @10:16PM (#13547815)
Read the stories about how he wanted to work on the Occulus version of Minecraft, and how focused he was on making sure he could do that. There didn't appear to be much caution there, either.
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by puranjay on Thursday February 02, 2017 @02:08AM (#13548712)
Honestly, Carmack sounds like he is smitten with VR/Oculus, at least in the earlier videos.

I don't think he was treating this very rationally...it was like love

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by legodt on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:26PM (#13546013)
I don't think Carmack works that way. All he really cares about professionally (I'm not talking about his personal life or rocketry) is doing good work and pushing his code to the limits of the field. Oculus hardware was a big coding challenge without much marked territory or set rules for Carmack, so that's probably the only thing he was thinking about while working.
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by bishnu on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:50PM (#13546206)
If he does, he's come a long way from the John Carmack that consistently open-sourced his 3D engines and followed up with developers who failed to abide by the GPL [0].

(I don't think he works the way you describe at all).

[0] https://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/finger.pl?id=1&time=200002...

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by drzaiusapelord on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:20PM (#13545960)
Seems fair to me as well. There's already postings dismissing any IP settlement as "unfair" here but that's fairly unrealistic in the real world. If IP can't be defended then that chills investor confidence. Why should I invest in company x if employees can leave with all the IP and go start company y?

Note this wasn't some submarine patent troll out of nowhere. This was a Zenimax employee working on another company's product on their time. This was also about NDA violations and a boatload of shady dealings by Facebook who famously bought Oculus over the weekend and left no time for a proper discovery of liabilities. There's little controversial about this. Carmack and Luckey were simply wrong and Oculus should have worked things out better with Zenimax. FB needs to do better due diligence. A lot of bad players were punished today. The VR industry is too young and fragile to have these shenanigans become the norm. Signaling to investors that VR IP is protected is a good for everyone.

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by psuedonymous on Thursday February 02, 2017 @02:51AM (#13548872)
"Clearly it's Carmack's genius that made this viable."

The HMD was functional before Carmack got involved. For example, Hunger in Los Angeles (https://news.usc.edu/32639/hunger-in-l-a-makes-its-mark-at-s...) used the PR4 prototype unit months BEFORE Carmack requested a version to try out. It had position tracking and optical pre-distortion at this time. So those concepts were around before Carmack was involved. As for code itself, Carmack implemented the pre-warp as a shader that projected the rectilinear image onto a surface (geometry). This approach was abandoned years ago and is now implemented with a pixel shader. The Hillcreast IMU Carmack wrote hard-coded support for (which you can look at in Doom BFG and see for yourself) was not even used for the final DK1, let alone later models. The used IMU was created by nrp as the 'adjacent reality' tracker, later hired by Oculus (and you can see the code for THAT tracker too, as both the DK1 and DK2 have had their source released on github).

Despite the first two development versions of the Rift having source available, Zenimax have yet to point to a single line of code as "ah-HAH! you copied this!".

Carmack's key work went into GearVR, not the Rift, where he worked with Samsung on the low-level changes to android (bypassing the Android compositor and USB stack, implementing racing-the-beam asynchronous timewarp).

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by efraim on Thursday February 02, 2017 @06:34AM (#13549777)
>As for code itself, Carmack implemented the pre-warp as a shader that projected the rectilinear image onto a surface (geometry). This approach was abandoned years ago and is now implemented with a pixel shader.

Not that it matters for your point, but it was the other way around. They are using a mesh based pre-distortion now.

>Although the exact distortion parameters depend on the lens characteristics and eye position relative to the lens, the Oculus SDK takes care of all necessary calculations when generating the distortion mesh.

https://developer3.oculus.com/documentation/pcsdk/latest/con...

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by gshulegaard on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:43PM (#13546154)
I feel like this timeline is missing somethings...like where does Palmer working as a contractor at Zenimax fit into here?

Also what about all the flippant allegations Zenimax was making about Luckey's technical expertise?

What about the allegations that the IP was from Zenimax proper?

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by blazespin on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @06:28PM (#13546502)
Did the juror agree to all of the line items there?
Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by k-t on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @09:03PM (#13547447)
No. The jury specifically rejected the claims of misappropriated trade secrets, which was the main thrust of Zenimax's argument.

The damages break down to $50M for copyright infringement, $200M for failing to comply with the NDA, and $250M for false designation.

While I personally believe they did break the NDA by showing the hardware with the demo Carmack cooked up, the amount of money awarded is beyond absurd.

Re:Facebook Ordered to Pay $500M in Oculus Lawsuit by Bamafan on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:05AM (#13548255)
"While I personally believe they did break the NDA by showing the hardware with the demo Carmack cooked up, the amount of money awarded is beyond absurd."

That all depends on if the demo was the deciding factor in the multi-billion dollar buyout.