I cuss a lot at work. But I don't cuss at people. I have a coworker that says things like "It's fucking ridiculous that X task isn't done" to the people who are doing that task. This dude is toxic to be around. I... think I'm not? We'll see how many of the people I'm managing still work here in a year, though. Hopefully all of them.
So yeah. In addition to signaling honesty, cussing can be part of aggressively damaging relationships, which is something businesses (and HN) benefit from discouraging.
I find this an interesting statement. Would you mind providing some clear examples of a real-life situation where honesty isn't a virtue?
I often find that lying is convenient (for the person lying) in the short term but its damage can be far reaching and difficult to predict. If you want to have meaningful and effective relationships (at home or at work) straight honesty is always beneficial.
I do remember working with someone who had Alzheimer's disease. I stopped being honest with her quite quickly as I figured that repeatedly reminding her of her husband's death was wrong. But I can't think of any other examples of my life when straight honesty wasn't a virtue. What about you?
>I find this an interesting statement. Would you mind providing some clear examples of a real-life situation where honesty isn't a virtue?
Umm, certainly.
The canonical example goes something like this—
Someone knocks urgently at your door. You open it to find your best friend on the stoop, bent over and panting from exertion.
He says there is some madman chasing him and for his safety he needs to hide there at your place for a spell.
You welcome him in, of course, and he goes to the smallest upstairs bedroom to lie down.
Moments later there is another knock on the door.
You open it to find someone you've never met before, only slightly less out of breath than was your buddy.
"Hello, is <friend's name> here? I'm here to kill him, you see. My rationale is rather not your concern, but as I'm in a bit of a rush, please do tell so that I may finish the job or be on my way." -- The remainder of the dialog is left as an exercise for the reader. ;-D
/* Philosophy major, with emphasis on Kantian ethics */
We might go down a rabbit hole here but your example (mad man, Anne Frank, whatever) doesn't clearly demonstrate that honesty isn't a virtue. It's a clear example of a real life situation, sure, but it doesn't show that telling the truth wouldn't be virtuous.
I'm not entirely sure what transpired. I assume he had to report to higher-ups(and it didn't go over well?). But, that experience has always stuck with me.
In general, I am honest & don't swear much.
You could come up with similar examples where you take days off to interview at other companies. Obviously telling your boss will probably anger them (and might be seen as a breach of your contract if you do it during work hours) but the moment your boss actually thinks about it they would realise that your honesty provides them with much better evidence about what to do next. That might include finding out why you want to leave, how to keep you, ending the relationship on good terms, hiring someone else sooner than if you lied, etc etc.
Now, it's very difficult to tell the truth in these situations and people aren't expected to do so. But honesty is still a virtue, perhaps even more so, in these situations.
btw, I haven't altered my behaviour. Just can't forget the experience.
In most negotiations, you are usually at an advantage if you have more information than other parties. Lying/lack of transparency tend to work to your advantage in such situations. Of course, it depends on what, and there's context to that...
2. Recently I ran into abberant behavior with our database that freaked me the fuck out (it shut down saying it recieved a ctl+c, but none was given), and disclosed this to my superior. It freaked him the fuck out. Now I'm being provided pressure in a way that doesn't help, and somewhat hinders, my ability to do effective work. Omitting this when giving a status report until I had more information would have been better.
3. I recently spent a lot of time with an ex, a relationship which has longstanding fractures. I made a passing comment that made her hoppin' mad, and she brought it up with me pretty maturely (+/-), but then devolved into a lot of "you always _____ and I hate it, who even does that!" statements. I saw very clearly that I could respond: "this is a bullshit way to talk to me, you haven't seen me in three years and you have no idea what i always do or don't do, and fuck you and your high horse." That would've been the really authentic, honest response. Instead I bit my tongue, managed the conversation back to the specific thing I had done and how I could avoid doing it again moving forward. The next day I was able to say (also honestly) that I appreciated that she'd gotten better at articulating ways in which I hurt her, but I really didn't appreciate the way she did it. By not disclosing how I felt in a timely manner, I saved my vacation.
These are all examples of when substantially less disclosure either did or could have improved outcomes.
Outright lies I tell on a regular basis:
"Hey, it's good to see you!" (read: I want you to find this interaction pleasant.)
"Yeah, things are going well." (read: Things are objectively terrible right now I'm not interested in talking about it)
"I'm really excited about this sprint, I think we're gonna get a lot of good work done." (read: I'm getting yelled at because our work isn't done yet but stress doesn't effectively motivate good intellectual work.)
"If you need help, please feel free to ask me questions at any time, I don't mind at all." (read: It stresses me the fuck out being interrupted all the time but it facilitates my team being able to do their job, so I'll deal with it, and lying about it keeps other people from being responsible for my feelings.)
I'd say expressing contempt for your co-workers is toxic whether it's accompanied by swearing or not
This example has nothing to do with swearing, which is just adding emphasis. The sentiment being expressed in the first place is toxic.
Compare: "it's absolutely absurd that this isn't done" and "it's fucking awesome that this got done so fast".
Quite obviously, the latter isn't the toxic one.
This might be something you say right before your about to fire someone as an explanation why. But if you are saying things like this on a regular basis, you're an asshole.
I've watched every single one of my submissions to Stackoverflow that I contributed in my own free time slowly cleaned and all my character purged from it until it more or less sounds like an American infomercial.
And when I complain about this American cultural belligerence all I get is a bunch of blithe, hollow muppets who have been drained of passion and love telling me that I'm unprofessional and not swearing is empirically better because.
Fuck that shit. I have to pragmatically accept it as a fact of life but I _really_ despise it.
The first can easily be "fixed" for the more sensitive audience by using synonyms or some asterisk/hyphen substitution, or more generally toning it down a bit, and is - if I am allowed to use the two words together - substantially formal only.
The second is instead IMHO a bigger issue, because it implies a form of (self or coming from the society) imposed censorship on the "concepts".
The Americans that have in theory the most permissive (thanks to first amendment) Laws on the right of expressing one's opinion have seemingly in practice a lot more "forbidden" topics (in the sense of topics on which your opinion "must" conform to the society accepted take on the matter).
At least this is my impression.
> thou shalt not swear
on the internet programming community is really coloured by corporate and most corporate is American. The big argument I get is about corporate firewalls preventing access to any StackOverflow page with a cuss in it.
It's 'unprofessional.' Of course, so is honesty.
When speaking with colleagues, it's discouraged only when there's people who are trigger-happy about complaining to HR. Fairly or not, women in particular have a reputation of running to HR when someone says something offensive or crude, which leads to them being excluded from office banter, which leads to them feeling left out of the group. Tough problem to solve.
It makes sense really. You let the profanity flow when you feel that you can trust people. You're also most honest when you feel that you can trust people.
>In my BillG review meeting, the whole reporting hierarchy was there, along with their cousins, sisters, and aunts, and a person who came along from my team whose whole job during the meeting was to keep an accurate count of how many times Bill said the F word. The lower the f*-count, the better.
Was Gates the only one allowed to swear?
[1] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-rev...
We're getting too soft these days.
I totally swear when I stub my toe, when I forget something and I'm half way to work, but I never feel need the need to interject swears into common sentences.
People comment that I don't swear often -- usually uncomfortably checking if I'm against it-- I'm not, I work in finance where there is a lot of swearing done and don't mind. Its just not part of the vocab I use.
Interesting twist for me is that now that the kids are all grown up my mother swears and said she swore a lot before kids but 'gave it up' to make the rule real. Totally hard for my brain to handle.
Actually, it seems really easy to solve: Stop cursing so much at work and stop excluding women from your conversations. If you can't see the value of inclusiveness over cursing, you're the problem in the situation.
Slippery slope. What if I don't like the topics you bring up?
People can be made uncomfortable though by vulgar language. It shouldn't be used in an office setting to the point that it's making other people uncomfortable. Read those around you and try to be accommodating. This is basic stuff.
Also, it's not a purely gender thing. My mother, of hispanic upbringing, finds that she cannot banter the same way around American-raised women as she can with other hispanic women. It turns out that getting easily offended and trying to ruin people's careers over it is not innate to women, but has for some reason arisen out of American culture and also afflicts many men.
I'm not saying you need be friends with everyone. I'm saying part of your job is helping ensure everyone on your team feels included and feels like they fit in. I'm not suggesting this will always be possible for every last person, but it's hardly the tough problem you seem to think it is. Read people around you and be empathetic and accommodating. That's it.
I should also say your talk about women ruining careers by going to HR is ridiculous, but it's so ridiculous that I don't feel it needs further addressing. I've been in the industry a long time and I've never heard of anyone filing a complaint with HR outside of clear instances of sexual harassment.
And no, I'm not promoting a Stalinist regime by suggesting that people be considerate of the feelings of others.
As an aside, and probably why I replied in the first place, is that I feel people are just too extreme nowadays. Everything is offensive to everybody, including getting offended of others being offended. People can't swear freely without eventually offending somebody, but people can't object to offense without being belittled. The extreme component of this is that nobody has chosen to pick their battles, instead further entrenching themselves in an ideology of moot points rather than a focus towards conflict resolution. I feel many of the comments in here are representative of this.
I'm hopeful that people realize that there's a middle ground to all of this, but folks on both sides don't seem to care.
Sorry for my rant.