> Straight honesty isn't always a virtue.

I find this an interesting statement. Would you mind providing some clear examples of a real-life situation where honesty isn't a virtue?

I often find that lying is convenient (for the person lying) in the short term but its damage can be far reaching and difficult to predict. If you want to have meaningful and effective relationships (at home or at work) straight honesty is always beneficial.

I do remember working with someone who had Alzheimer's disease. I stopped being honest with her quite quickly as I figured that repeatedly reminding her of her husband's death was wrong. But I can't think of any other examples of my life when straight honesty wasn't a virtue. What about you?

|> Straight honesty isn't always a virtue.

>I find this an interesting statement. Would you mind providing some clear examples of a real-life situation where honesty isn't a virtue?

Umm, certainly.

The canonical example goes something like this—

Someone knocks urgently at your door. You open it to find your best friend on the stoop, bent over and panting from exertion.

He says there is some madman chasing him and for his safety he needs to hide there at your place for a spell.

You welcome him in, of course, and he goes to the smallest upstairs bedroom to lie down.

Moments later there is another knock on the door.

You open it to find someone you've never met before, only slightly less out of breath than was your buddy.

"Hello, is <friend's name> here? I'm here to kill him, you see. My rationale is rather not your concern, but as I'm in a bit of a rush, please do tell so that I may finish the job or be on my way." -- The remainder of the dialog is left as an exercise for the reader. ;-D

/* Philosophy major, with emphasis on Kantian ethics */

Yeah. This is the classic example and obviously is interesting to think about. Some people still defend telling the truth if you're hiding Anne Frank and the Nazis are at the door.

We might go down a rabbit hole here but your example (mad man, Anne Frank, whatever) doesn't clearly demonstrate that honesty isn't a virtue. It's a clear example of a real life situation, sure, but it doesn't show that telling the truth wouldn't be virtuous.

Years ago... I managed a 1MM retail shop in San Francisco; worked too many hours. Needed that "mental health" day off. I informed my regional manager. Within the hour, he called me back and said "next time, just lie to me. tell me your sick".

I'm not entirely sure what transpired. I assume he had to report to higher-ups(and it didn't go over well?). But, that experience has always stuck with me.

In general, I am honest & don't swear much.

Yeah. I understand that. But by telling your boss the truth you gave him a real gift in that he could trust you. If he (or the higher-ups) thought about that a little bit they would realise that your honestly was valuable.

You could come up with similar examples where you take days off to interview at other companies. Obviously telling your boss will probably anger them (and might be seen as a breach of your contract if you do it during work hours) but the moment your boss actually thinks about it they would realise that your honesty provides them with much better evidence about what to do next. That might include finding out why you want to leave, how to keep you, ending the relationship on good terms, hiring someone else sooner than if you lied, etc etc.

Now, it's very difficult to tell the truth in these situations and people aren't expected to do so. But honesty is still a virtue, perhaps even more so, in these situations.

On point. Seems you value honesty as much as I do.

btw, I haven't altered my behaviour. Just can't forget the experience.

> Would you mind providing some clear examples of a real-life situation where honesty isn't a virtue?

In most negotiations, you are usually at an advantage if you have more information than other parties. Lying/lack of transparency tend to work to your advantage in such situations. Of course, it depends on what, and there's context to that...

1. An acquaintance on facebook recently posted about how he thinks obesity is a disease and he finds obese people gross. This cost him some friends and the esteem of some other friends. Being honest that you hold positions which are repugnant to other people can generate needless conflict. There's also the moral question of being an asshole towards a large class of people needlessly, but I'll leave exploring that as an exercise to the reader.

2. Recently I ran into abberant behavior with our database that freaked me the fuck out (it shut down saying it recieved a ctl+c, but none was given), and disclosed this to my superior. It freaked him the fuck out. Now I'm being provided pressure in a way that doesn't help, and somewhat hinders, my ability to do effective work. Omitting this when giving a status report until I had more information would have been better.

3. I recently spent a lot of time with an ex, a relationship which has longstanding fractures. I made a passing comment that made her hoppin' mad, and she brought it up with me pretty maturely (+/-), but then devolved into a lot of "you always _____ and I hate it, who even does that!" statements. I saw very clearly that I could respond: "this is a bullshit way to talk to me, you haven't seen me in three years and you have no idea what i always do or don't do, and fuck you and your high horse." That would've been the really authentic, honest response. Instead I bit my tongue, managed the conversation back to the specific thing I had done and how I could avoid doing it again moving forward. The next day I was able to say (also honestly) that I appreciated that she'd gotten better at articulating ways in which I hurt her, but I really didn't appreciate the way she did it. By not disclosing how I felt in a timely manner, I saved my vacation.

These are all examples of when substantially less disclosure either did or could have improved outcomes.

Outright lies I tell on a regular basis:

"Hey, it's good to see you!" (read: I want you to find this interaction pleasant.)

"Yeah, things are going well." (read: Things are objectively terrible right now I'm not interested in talking about it)

"I'm really excited about this sprint, I think we're gonna get a lot of good work done." (read: I'm getting yelled at because our work isn't done yet but stress doesn't effectively motivate good intellectual work.)

"If you need help, please feel free to ask me questions at any time, I don't mind at all." (read: It stresses me the fuck out being interrupted all the time but it facilitates my team being able to do their job, so I'll deal with it, and lying about it keeps other people from being responsible for my feelings.)

Here (in Ireland) swearing is a kind of in-group signalling - typically people swear pretty freely in the presence of their equals

I'd say expressing contempt for your co-workers is toxic whether it's accompanied by swearing or not

> I cuss a lot at work. But I don't cuss at people. I have a coworker that says things like "It's fucking ridiculous that X task isn't done" to the people who are doing that task. This dude is toxic to be around.

This example has nothing to do with swearing, which is just adding emphasis. The sentiment being expressed in the first place is toxic.

Compare: "it's absolutely absurd that this isn't done" and "it's fucking awesome that this got done so fast".

Quite obviously, the latter isn't the toxic one.

Swearing at people like that takes it to a different level. And it's not the swearing that's bad, saying "It's ridiculous that X task isn't done" is bad too. Swearing just adds emphasis and makes it worse.

This might be something you say right before your about to fire someone as an explanation why. But if you are saying things like this on a regular basis, you're an asshole.