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Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by Urgo on Thursday January 12, 2017 @09:44PM (#13388018)
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by tavrobel on Thursday January 12, 2017 @09:55PM (#13388048)
What was the deal before this? Just free electricity?

This seems like a pretty fair and obvious way to move forward: the electricity isn't free, and it doesn't seem like they are attempting to turn a profit off of the electricity cost like a Gas station does. It curtails the externalities of Uber/Taxis freeloading off of infrastructure that has ongoing costs to maintain but provides a good value for buyers for a few longer distance trips.

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by will_hughes on Thursday January 12, 2017 @10:13PM (#13388127)
(The other reply answering this seems to have been deleted)

It used to be unlimited supercharging. The assumption was that people would primarily charge at home, and use the supercharger only for long distance travelling.

It seems that in practice far too many people were using the supercharger as the only place to charge their vehicle, with a fair number of people using it for commercial purposes.

The Tesla Taxis at Schipol Airport in Amsterdam were apparently all using the supercharger facility, rather than setting up their own charging infrastructure.

Also, it wasn't, technically, 'free' - a supercharger fee was charged either on purchase of the car or afterwards.

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by prostoalex on Friday January 13, 2017 @12:23AM (#13388620)
> Also, it wasn't, technically, 'free' - a supercharger fee was charged either on purchase of the car or afterwards.

Not in the US, all Tesla vehicles ordered before January 15th of 2017 came with free supercharger access.

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by dingaling on Friday January 13, 2017 @12:58AM (#13388750)
> came with free supercharger access.

By no means 'free': there was a $2000 Supercharger access fee included in the purchase price of the S85, or $2500 to enable it after purchase for the S60.

Not available for the S40 variant which wasn't permitted to use the Superchargers.

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by prostoalex on Friday January 13, 2017 @01:18AM (#13388830)
I am not seeing it. Buying a new S today https://www.tesla.com/models/design offers the following premium options: autopilot - $5k, full self driving - $3k, premium package - $3.5k, smart air suspension - $2.5k, subzero - $1k, hi-fi sound - $2.5k, rear-facing seats - $4k, high-amperage onboard charger - $1.5k.

Everything else is included in the price of the vehicle and is standard https://www.tesla.com/models

Under specs they list

* Access to Tesla's expanding Supercharger network

* Mobile connector with 110 volt, 240 volt, and J1772 adapters

* 17" capacitive touchscreen

* Onboard maps and navigation with free updates for 7 years

* Automatic keyless entry

* ...

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by dingaling on Friday January 13, 2017 @05:12AM (#13389747)
It seems that once the S70 was released it was removed as an optional line-item across the range and was bundled into the final price. However owners of suitable non-S40 vehicles from before that point can still enable access for a fee ( they have the hardware already installed, it's a database flag change ).

"If your vehicle is eligible, the Supercharging upgrade option will be visible in the Available Upgrades section."

http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/enable-supercharging

The S40 has the hardware for Supercharging but is excluded by policy.

I'm only aware of this because a friend in the UK has been trying to work-out what's applicable in this market and Tesla's constant changes to the policy makes that difficult.

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by tempestn on Friday January 13, 2017 @01:48AM (#13388942)
Even if it's included standard, it's still priced in though, right? Same reason "Buy three tires; get the fourth free" isn't really free.
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by prostoalex on Friday January 13, 2017 @05:36PM (#13395414)
I guess we'll find out in 3 days after the Great Supercharger Unbundling occurs.
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by zwily on Friday January 13, 2017 @08:47AM (#13390699)
It is "free with your $100k purchase".
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by crooked-v on Thursday January 12, 2017 @10:19PM (#13388158)
> What was the deal before this? Just free electricity?

Yes.

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by DanFeldman on Thursday January 12, 2017 @09:50PM (#13388032)
> To put the affordability of Supercharging into perspective, customers will pay about $15 for a road trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles, about $120 from Los Angeles to New York, about €60 from Paris to Rome, and about ¥400 from Beijing to Shanghai.
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by tedmiston on Thursday January 12, 2017 @10:30PM (#13388198)
For reference using a Prius ~52 mpg combined (advertised) and current gas price in SF, for the drive from SF to LA:

383 / 52 * $2.61 = $19.22

Or a Honda Civic:

383 / 34 * $2.61 = $29.40

(Assuming their definition is one way not roundtrip.)

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by tuna-piano on Thursday January 12, 2017 @10:48PM (#13388271)
And in other US states and points in time, gas is cheaper. For example, in December in Greenville, SC gas was $1.90 a gallon which would make gas in a prius cheaper than the Tesla supercharger.

382 / 52 * $1.90 = $14

Data from (I used Greenville, SC): https://www.gasbuddy.com/Charts

EDIT: From Tesla's blog post "What’s important is that in every region, Supercharging will remain simple, seamless and always significantly cheaper than gasoline."

Looks like Tesla will be pricing the electricity differently in different states as well. I wonder if the changes in their electricity prices based on the region will be enough to offset currently low gas prices.

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by dlevine on Thursday January 12, 2017 @11:42PM (#13388445)
With that said, I'm guessing that the current cost estimates are based on a Model S, which is a much larger car than either a Prius or Civic.

The Model 3 will most likely have significantly better range per kwh than the Model S, reducing the cost even more.

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by coredog64 on Friday January 13, 2017 @08:41AM (#13390651)
A Prius is surprisingly large inside. EPA cargo volume for the rear with seats up (5 passengers) is about the same as the Model S. The frunk adds an additional 5 cubic feet.
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by tedmiston on Friday January 13, 2017 @02:39PM (#13394028)
Yeah, good point. I mainly just picked those two because of popularity.
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by URSpider94 on Friday January 13, 2017 @12:04AM (#13388526)
... but supercharging in SC will be roughly half the cost of what it is in CA, meaning the equivalent trip would only cost $7.50 in a Tesla.
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by gambiting on Friday January 13, 2017 @07:34AM (#13390320)
I keep forgetting how stupidly cheap petrol is in the States. Their given example of Paris->Rome route is probably 1/2 cost of the diesel cost in the most efficient of diesel cars, which makes Tesla look very cheap to run on such a long route.
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by avn2109 on Thursday January 12, 2017 @11:16PM (#13388352)
However, the Saudis will soon raise the price of fuel to exorbitant levels (again), while electricity prices will remain stably regulated by each state's power commission.
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by kirse on Thursday January 12, 2017 @11:40PM (#13388437)
However, the Saudis will soon raise the price of fuel to exorbitant levels

They don't have that much control. The US would increase fracking / shale ops and bring the cost of oil back down. We have incredibly massive oil reserves here in the US that any sort of Saudi nonsense will have limited effect.

Saudis have gotten themselves into a world of pain over the past few years attempting to play their stupid games with oil prices, so much so that they are about to take Saudi Aramco public to get a desperately-needed cash infusion. Our fracking/shale ops are also hurting though in this race to the bottom.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/31/texas-shale-o...

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by apercu on Friday January 13, 2017 @08:04AM (#13390486)
the US AND Canada. About 40% of the oil the US imports comes from Canada. More than comes from SA.
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by jdmichal on Friday January 13, 2017 @12:29AM (#13388648)
My state allows for a per-kW, at-cost fuel rate in addition to the controlled base rate. So definitely not true everywhere.
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by dingo_bat on Thursday January 12, 2017 @10:10PM (#13388113)
Is electricity generation using renewable sources inherently cheaper than coal, hydro and nuclear?
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by zaroth on Thursday January 12, 2017 @10:23PM (#13388172)
No, see LCOE. (which can be calculated with or without accounting for externalities)

Not surprisingly all current technology is relatively competitive with the others. If it wasn't the case, we would have a clear winner and there would be nothing interesting to discuss!

https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/08/f25/LCOE.pdf

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by TheSpiceIsLife on Friday January 13, 2017 @01:30AM (#13388877)
What does this mean for the folk who loudly proclaim "[solar/wind] now cheaper than coal"?
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by nradov on Friday January 13, 2017 @09:43AM (#13391104)
Solar and wind power can be cheaper than coal (by spot price) in certain limited areas at certain times of the day. The problem is that solar and wind are incapable of providing reliable base load capacity. Once you add energy storage (batteries, molten salt, pumped hydroelectric, etc) to provide power when it's dark with no wind blowing the costs go way up.
Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by prostoalex on Friday January 13, 2017 @12:28AM (#13388645)
Not inherently, but renewables generally have high cap-ex but low op-ex. Therefore highly depends on your entry price (this year's solar panels are cheaper than last year's).

Seems like solar is at 3c/kWh (production cost before transportation) in certain regions now http://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-prices-plunge-to-new-lows-a...

Re:Tesla details how it’ll charge new owners to use Supercha... by RichardHeart on Thursday January 12, 2017 @10:15PM (#13388138)
It depends on where you live. Lots of wind? Lots of sun hours? Lots of subsidies?