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Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by Freak_NL on Monday January 02, 2017 @10:39AM (#13301697)
In The Netherlands a similar bill has been submitted to our upper house for approval last September. I hope it passes, although there is vocal opposition against this issue.

From a society's perspective opt-out makes perfect sense. If you are really against organ donation, just register yourself as such; it takes all of five minutes. I don't even care why you would want to keep all your organs after death, it's not my call.

The reason to go for opt-out rather than opt-in is because a lot of people simply don't register their preference, even when they are, rationally speaking, all for organ donation — that's the critical point. Thinking about your own mortality sucks, and visiting the website where you can register yourself as a donor (necessary for the opt-in model) is something that hovers somewhere on the eternal to-do list, but somehow they never get around to it. Because it is never you that suddenly dies in a freak accident.

If you are against organ donation, you will however register that preference the moment such a bill is passed into law.

That's it. Statistics and psychology (and saving lives) are the reason states consider opt-out over opt-in. The state isn't invading your corporeal sovereignty, you are not being harvested for organs the moment you enter a hospital (well, not in France or The Netherlands at least), and you still get to decide.

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by Mc_Big_G on Monday January 02, 2017 @11:29AM (#13302074)
"I don't even care why you would want to keep all your organs after death"

I don't, but I also want every measure to be taken to ensure I survive. With the corruption and dishonesty we've seen from the police all the way to the highest levels of government, I no longer believe my best interests will be honored. I used to be a donor, but I've lost faith in our institutions, especially when it comes to Healthcare. Do you trust insurance companies? If so, why?

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by pzh on Monday January 02, 2017 @11:53AM (#13302287)
Why is this downvoted? I think it's a valid concern.

How do you know that in some small village somewhere the local government isn't so corrupt as to make sure the organ donation process gets 'speeded up' to serve the need of some wealthy/influential organ recipient in waiting?

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by raesene9 on Monday January 02, 2017 @12:10PM (#13302460)
I didn't downvote, but I've got to say I don't think it is a valid concern.

If you honestly have so little faith in local government that you believe they would change the care options of a patient to "speed up" organ donation, what makes you think they wouldn't disregard the patients preferences on organ donation and just remove the relavent item after death and before handing the body over to the family?

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by pzh on Monday January 02, 2017 @12:15PM (#13302519)
Aren't you effectively saying that it's pointless to lock your house, because if a thief is immoral enough to enter and steal your TV, they'd be immoral enough to break the lock as well?
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by raesene9 on Monday January 02, 2017 @12:52PM (#13302851)
nope I'm saying that one is as easy or indeed easier than another. Once you assume an immoral authority has control over patient care it's frankly easier and less risky for them just to remove organs without patient consent after death, than deliberately give poor care to hasten the patient's demise.
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by jlg23 on Monday January 02, 2017 @01:09PM (#13303021)
a) My patient might be dead by the time the donor dies, less profit for me.

b) "deliberately poor care" or "generous amounts of painkillers"? The alternative phrasing is exactly how assisted suicide works in societies where it is not legal.

And here some story reported in 2012, in Germany (English article, though): http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/organ-transplant...

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by alendit on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:55AM (#13307526)
Did you read the article? Patients were pushed to the top of the list, no donor was given subpar treatment, that would be murder.
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by finiter on Monday January 02, 2017 @01:15PM (#13303072)
If you don't want a thief to steal your TV, marking the 'Don't Rob Me' box on your Driver's License is not a useful protection.
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by Frondo on Monday January 02, 2017 @01:11PM (#13303038)
I don't think it's a valid concern, because they're effectively calling doctors murderers working on behalf of a nearby wealthy person.

If the system has broken down to where doctors will kill patients for the nearby wealthy person, why not just kill you outright to steal your organs?

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by ghaff on Monday January 02, 2017 @03:00PM (#13303936)
It's also not how donated organ allocation happens in the US. A hospital can't just grab an organ from a local donor and use it.

And, if someone thinks the system is so corrupt that those processes aren't followed, I'm not sure what laws etc. will make a difference.

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by putlake on Monday January 02, 2017 @01:03PM (#13302968)
There is a paper trail, at least in developed countries with a formal waiting list. So a corrupt authority harvesting organs without consent cannot just use it without informing the registry about where the organ came from.
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by arjie on Monday January 02, 2017 @01:43PM (#13303317)
These corrupt doctors are willing to kill people and/or steal their organs, but they insist on notifying the registry before they put the stolen organs in the recipient? Sounds absurd, man.
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by Freak_NL on Monday January 02, 2017 @12:12PM (#13302481)
Objectively, this depends a lot on where you live, and subjectively, on how you perceive your government and society. Regardless, you can opt-out.

You argument makes sense if a state made organ donation mandatory, but I don't think any country has such a law.

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by zdean on Monday January 02, 2017 @12:45PM (#13302796)
If we've moved from opt-in to opt-out, what do you think is the next logical step in that path if not mandatory donation? And if the argument is that we should move to opt-out because "greater good", then what's the argument against mandatory donations?
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by alendit on Tuesday January 03, 2017 @02:58AM (#13307536)
This is slippery slope fallacy. The argument against mandatory donations is exactly that - it's makes donations mandatory, while opt-out gives you choice and just changes the default.

If you seriously fear for your life as a registered donor, it should be not too much work to check one box.

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by colinbartlett on Monday January 02, 2017 @12:54PM (#13302874)
If there is mandatory donation, or even if there is opt-out, wouldn't that increase the supply to meet the demand, thereby reducing any incentive for profit on the sale of organs and eliminating any motive for corruption?
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by zdean on Monday January 02, 2017 @01:05PM (#13302992)
If the end justifies the means, then I think it's irrelevant whether the change causes demand to be met so long as more people get the organs they need. On the other hand, if you don't believe that the end justifies the means, then it's completely irrelevant because you have to respect people's choices over their bodies (even posthumously) even if you think they are misguided or 'selfish'.
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by halfdgvfyjjuc on Monday January 02, 2017 @01:27PM (#13303182)
Only if the supply actually increased enough to actually meet demand. It is far from clear that it would.
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by arjie on Monday January 02, 2017 @01:41PM (#13303303)
Why does there have to be a next step?
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by Freak_NL on Monday January 02, 2017 @01:12PM (#13303047)
Both opt-in and opt-out offer you the same degree of choice; neither is a step towards mandatory organ donation.
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by jhg7877 on Monday January 02, 2017 @11:09AM (#13301890)
"From a society's perspective opt-out makes perfect sense." It's very troubling to follow that line of thought. It's also arguably in societies interest to make all your private medical data publicly available for research and all your private communications, purchases and movements available to any government agency to prevent crime etc. How many people would be comfortable with what are considered by many to be fundamental rights being opt-in all of a sudden?

"The state isn't invading your corporeal sovereignty". It is, in the most fundamental and intimate way possible. If you support opt-out at least be honest about what it is. I carry an organ donation card but this is a line I think should not be crossed. There are alternative which don't make your body ownership opt-in (like doctors guidelines about approaching families etc).

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by d4adb33f on Monday January 02, 2017 @11:19AM (#13301977)
> From a society's perspective opt-out makes perfect sense." It's very troubling to follow that line of thought. It's also arguably in societies interest to make all your private medical data publicly available for research and all your private communications, purchases and movements available to any government agency to prevent crime etc. How many people would be comfortable with what are considered by many to be fundamental rights being opt-in all of a sudden?

Straw man argument. People don't die with immediate effect for lack of public data.

> "The state isn't invading your corporeal sovereignty". It is, in the most fundamental and intimate way possible. If you support opt-out at least be honest about what it is. I carry an organ donation card but this is a line I think should not be crossed. There are alternative which don't make your body ownership opt-in (like doctors guidelines about approaching families etc).

You are dead. What rights do you really need and how are they violated?

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by chrischen on Monday January 02, 2017 @11:44AM (#13302206)
While i support opt out, you do have rights after you're dead, otherwise your wills would have no power and you would not be able to leave inheritance.
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by d4adb33f on Monday January 02, 2017 @12:01PM (#13302373)
Sure, but this has no relation to what happens to your body when you are dead, unless you deed your body in your will.
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by loup-vaillant on Monday January 02, 2017 @11:49AM (#13302255)
> You are dead. What rights do you really need and how are they violated?

I see two possibilities. One, the state of my body affects what will happen to me. Two, I am mostly dead, and cryonics (and some future tech) could save me.

The first requires something supernatural. My probability: "no way in hell". The second requires cryonics to work. In theory, in practice, economically, and for me in particular. My probability: "one hell of a long shot".

Even if my organs do matter to my dead being, doctors still have lives to save…

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by Freak_NL on Monday January 02, 2017 @12:03PM (#13302389)
Anyone who beliefs cryogenics will save them will surely make the proper arrangements, and will certainly register themself as a non-donor in any opt-out system. This is a non-issue if your mind is made up; you can opt-out, by design.
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by emiliobumachar on Monday January 02, 2017 @05:34PM (#13305125)
Many cryonics solutions are head-only to save costs. So it's not mutually exclusive with organ donation.

(by the way, I'm pretty sure that's what inspired the live heads in jars in Futurama.)

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by loup-vaillant on Monday January 02, 2017 @12:24PM (#13302613)
One may register for cryonics, and still donate organs.

I'm not sure I need my heart, kidneys etc. for future reconstruction. Important information might be located in the gut, but I'm sure we can extract many organs without touching those neurons.

Even then, I may be willing to sacrifice my hope of resuscitation to save lives today. And that's if I even bother registering for cryonics —as tempting as it is.

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by d4adb33f on Monday January 02, 2017 @12:13PM (#13302493)
I'm good with losing state after death. It's not like people aren't maimed (involuntary) before death also.

I'm also good with door number two. If you are to be cryonically preserved then you should not even need to opt-out as you are not "dead".

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by mikeash on Monday January 02, 2017 @12:19PM (#13302562)
Once you're dead, there's no longer a "you" for your organs to belong to. At worst, they're violating the property rights of your next of kin, and even that is basically irrelevant in a place where selling organs is illegal.
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by ar-jan on Monday January 02, 2017 @11:11AM (#13301903)
I hope it doesn't pass, it's a move in a very wrong direction.

> The state isn't invading your corporeal sovereignty

Basically, that IS what's happening. The obvious sane solution would be to force people to make a choice, for example, when you request a new ID card you must register your preference. But now the default choice is already made for you. And that's of course exactly what they're aiming for, just as software vendors do with opt-out schemes.

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by jhg7877 on Monday January 02, 2017 @11:20AM (#13301980)
It's a classic dark pattern. I think many of the people supporting opt-out know that people would say no if confronted with the question so they support what I would call an an underhand and sinister approach. See the OP's response below "I would fear that for many people being confronted with this choice when you are renewing your driver's licence means defaulting for the 'safe' option of non-donor."
Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by loup-vaillant on Monday January 02, 2017 @11:38AM (#13302151)
On the one hand we have this underhanded, sinister manipulation. On the other hand, we have lives to save.

Personally, I side with the supervillain on this one. Hurt feelings (including religious delusions) are nothing compared to the good you can make with a person's organs.

That said, I still (reluctantly) support the possibility to opt out. Forcing people to give up their body after their death is likely to have consequences I don't want to deal with.

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by shpx on Monday January 02, 2017 @12:13PM (#13302484)
In the US in 2012 94% "strongly support" organ donation and 61% are actually donors[0], so at most we can expect to double the number of registered donors -- although depending on demographics of non donors that might mean a lot more actual donors since 2.5 million die annually but there are only 30,000 organ donations. The waitlist grows by a few thousand each year (was 117,000 in 2012), so doubling the number of organ donors would solve the problem in like a decade, assuming rates stay the same -- although I bet more people would get organ transplants if it was more readily available [1].

I don't know the number of people who don't want to donate their organs but even more strongly don't want to be on the "Selfish Assholes List" (which will inevitably be leaked (increasing distrust between citizens is a nice "cyberwarfare" play)), but I suspect it's non negligible. Maybe social pressure is for the greater good, but it is a tradeoff you should be honest about.

The real solution is artificial organs.

[0] https://imgur.com/a/qoeUR charts taken from https://www.organdonor.gov/dtcp/nationalsurveyorgandonation....

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

Re:Organ donation becomes opt-out in France by shaqbert on Monday January 02, 2017 @10:49AM (#13301764)
The "nudge" effect has had significant positive results [1] where it got introduced. It basically is the difference between a many year organ waiting list and getting a rapid transplant.

[1] http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916...