News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by cphoover on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @01:50PM (#13169484)
a whole industry of workers will be out of the job. How will society react? Will we have a socialist revolt? Want to stay clear from politics... but seriously why isn't anyone talking about the socioeconomic impact this will have once drivers are put out of the job?

IMHO this is the reason Trump won the election, because there is no plan for these people.

Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by virmundi on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @01:56PM (#13169564)
There are plenty of conversations around that idea here. UBI for example. Some people think that the population in general will retool (some will get left behind). Others point to the horse population in the US that went from some 5 million to a few hundred thousand following mechanized transportation as an example of what will happen to the middle class.
Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by Florin_Andrei on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:12PM (#13169759)
"Retooling" sounds like such a great idea when you're a 20-something urban male single software engineer, you've got nothing to lose, and the world is yours to take. It also sounds like a great idea when you're independently wealthy and you don't have to work for a living, so you can afford to bloviate from your ivory tower.

Most other demographics have very a different perspective on that concept, and for good reason.

There will be cataclysmic changes ahead if we don't seriously reconsider, well, everything about society. Under the current way of thinking, millions of people will get sent to the glue factory - to persist in your horse analogy here.

Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by virmundi on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:26PM (#13169918)
I'm with you entirely.

I have no idea how to solve this problem. My cousin's husband is a truck driver. He makes a six figure income running between Indy and Chicago (bang, bang). He's going to retire before they can get rid of him, but this is a huge issue.

I tried to explain this problem to my father, who's a CPA. I've pointed out that his firm can get by with a dramatically smaller office than it use to due to tech. Same's true for his lawyer friends. I pointed out that the law firms are not training the next generation like they use to since they use fewer low-level lawyers for research thanks to Lexus Nexus. Account is next.

I'm not a huge fan of UBI since I think that makes people slaves of their State. We've seen such enslavement in the US under welfare programs. We've set the program up to lock people in. If they try to get out, they will lose benefits (donut hole issue). I think UBI is like that, but worse.

Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by Florin_Andrei on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:51PM (#13170252)
> I'm not a huge fan of UBI since I think that makes people slaves of their State.

When America will be able to shake off its own mythology about this notion of the "State" as an inherently bad actor - then, perhaps, America will be able to get out of the current rut it's stuck in.

Yes, the "State" can be bad (I should know, I grew up in an actual bad "State" in the Eastern Bloc before the revolutions). But at the other extreme, societies can sabotage themselves from within, trigger the social equivalent of an autoimmune disease, and collapse from endemic distrust in the system - which to me is pretty clearly the direction America is going now.

There surely is a better middle ground somewhere.

Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by ams6110 on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @09:33PM (#13173337)
America was founded on the notion that the state is a bad actor.
Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by BigJono on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @04:58AM (#13174913)
And it will fall on that notion too if it fails to adapt to a changing economy.
Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by Florin_Andrei on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @02:30PM (#13178935)
> > America was founded on the notion that the state is a bad actor.

> And it will fall on that notion too if it fails to adapt to a changing economy.

I agree with both statements.

Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by allannienhuis on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:52PM (#13170261)
Isn't the whole point of UBI to be Universal? People don't lose the benefit if they earn additional income and everyone gets it so it shouldn't have an inherent stigma to receiving it.

I'm not actually sure its a practical option, but I don't see 'enslavement' as being one of it's downsides - where's the 'lock in'?

Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by virmundi on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @03:11PM (#13170479)
My concern is what happens if a block of people start to become disenchanted with UBI. Will the State cut their funding? Can the State, as the sole employer, lock the group out of the political discourse?

In general I'm not a fan of going to the United States government hat-in-hand. Look at Scotland. They do that with the Brits. They're kicked around all the time.

Here's an example. South Dakota v Dole, the Supreme Court said the government could tie general funding to states to enacting state laws. In this case the states had to raise the minimum drinking age to 21 if they wanted road funding. What's to stop the government in a UBI world, from putting different life-rules on its people.

The government goes from working for the people to providing for the people. That's a massive power imbalance. I don't know of any government I want to give that power. I do know it's not the United State's.

Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by astrange on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:44PM (#13170163)
A UBI should be universal, so you can't lose benefits - it's only as bad as how you become slightly less rich when your income goes up under progressive taxation.

The closest real problem I can think of is not being able to move to a $15/hr minimum wage city from a poor area because you don't have the starting capital to buy the basics there.

Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by antisthenes on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:45PM (#13170168)
> I'm not a huge fan of UBI since I think that makes people slaves of their State. We've seen such enslavement in the US under welfare programs. We've set the program up to lock people in. If they try to get out, they will lose benefits (donut hole issue). I think UBI is like that, but worse.

Bad policy structuring, because welfare programs are legacy programs and were designed when Economics was still in its infancy.

Also keep in mind that the welfare population is a minority. It's similar to the bank anecdote - if you owe the bank $1000, you have a problem, if you owe the bank $10,000,000, the bank has a problem.

When tens of millions of people in a country with gun ownership depend on UBI - any government structure that tries to reduce benefits or eliminate it will become a target of the masses.

Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by ryandrake on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:28PM (#13169945)
Won't happen in the USA. Due to our puritanical obsession with "earning" a living through labor, we'll never see Basic Income. It would be more politically do-able to pay 1/2 the people to dig holes and the other 1/2 to fill them in, than to implement a sensible UBI system.
Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by virmundi on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @04:16PM (#13171112)
What I don't get, even now, is the lack of public works. Digging a ditch and then filling it is dumb. Why not have individuals on welfare work cleaning out the forests in California? Playing a role in sensible land management implements? There are many places that the unused labor could benefit the people. At least then there is a work/trade for the money. In the end, those people get life lessons that would benefit them in the workplace.
Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by nradov on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @10:41PM (#13173612)
Right. Instead of just giving people money our governments at federal / state / local levels should become employers of last resort for everyone who has exhausted their welfare or unemployment benefits. Guarantee 30 hours / week at minimum wage to anyone who wants to work. Even if it's just trail maintenance or graffiti cleanup they will at least be maintaining basic employment skills, and have enough spare time to retrain for something better.
Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by nickik on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @01:59PM (#13169597)
What? Everybody is constantly talking about it. I have heared almost as much about that, compared to the actual technology.

The answer is of course the same as with any other reason people lose jobs and have done so in the past. It really is nothing new. Neither in scale, nor in severity.

Also, every state already has system to deal with that stuff. The hole point of a generalised systems is that you don't have a major political crisis everytime insert <big company or industy> suffers job loses.

That Trump won because of them is an assertion that is made often, but hard to proove or even show good evidence for.

Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by rorykoehler on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @01:57PM (#13169572)
Musk is talking about Universal Basic Income regularly. I also can't really see any other way this will pan out.
Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by briandear on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:02PM (#13169628)
What happened when cars were first invented? What happened when interchangeable parts were invented? Every time some new tech gets close to being revolutionary, the same sky-will-fall arguments get repeated. New markets are created, new industries develop; the economy continues to grow and worldwide poverty continues to drop.
Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by erikpukinskis on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @08:28PM (#13173032)
Why would it be different than previous instances of whole industries being out of a job? There was no revolt when the US shipped manufacturing overseas.
Re:Waymo: Google's self-driving car company by limeyx on Tuesday December 13, 2016 @02:54PM (#13170287)
And what is Trumps so special plan for them I wonder ?