What kind of exercise? Anecdotally, the kind that causes weight loss is pretty intense (i.e. sprinting, not jogging; Tabata is the most extreme form). See:

http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2010...

Can you provide some links for that?

Not a link, but certain individuals in the pop-diet field argue exercise increases appetite and may cause you to lose self-control binge on the wrong kinds of foods. Or, they'll perform a workout that burns 200 calories and then promptly down a sports drink that puts 200 calories right back into their system.

Others state that unless you're carefully balancing your calories vs. your workout level, you can push your metabolism into "starvation mode" - for example: lets say you require 2300 calories to maintain your weight, but you want to slim down so you decide to consume 2000 instead. If you throw exercise into the mix you're burning off an extra 300-500 calories (a net of 1500-1700 calories) which may put your body's metabolism into starvation mode. Because different people's bodies response to exercise differently, actually tracking your net caloric intake is challenging and not fully understood.

And of course there's the studies that show exercising alone with no diet plans seems to have a negligible impact on weight loss.

I hope I didn't misrepresent their arguments, but that's the gist of them.

Some weight lifting sources (e.g. http://stronglifts.com/) say that cardio-exercise is almost useless for losing weight. They hold that building muscles with, say, weightlifting will work much better, because you will have a higher base metabolic rate.

There should be studies about this in the literature.

There are two things going on: exercise, and eating. You have to get control of both, however you do that. If exercise makes you eat more, you have more work to do on the eating. If you do eat more because of exercise, at least make sure the food is good for you.

Humans aren't robots. I'll skip the philosophical discussion about whether or not will power exists (as you'd clearly need it to) but the fact is that if exercise makes you lose 200 calories worth of weight, but then makes you consume 250 calories, it's not helping you lose weight.

It's helping you in a number of other different ways perhaps, I was certainly not saying someone should not exercise. It's just not an effective weight loss technique.

Also when you add up the calories burned, even vigorous exercise just isn't that much. It's FAR easier to cut calories out of your diet than to exercise them away even if you assumed exercise did not make you hungrier or affect you in any other way adverse to weight loss.

Exercise doesn't just burn calories during the period of time in which you are performing the exercise though. '200 calories' after 30 minutes of running doesn't mean that the run burned 200 calories. It means you burned 200 calories in that 30 minutes - over time, the running also builds leg muscles and encourages other physiological changes in your body that boost your base metabolic rate, allowing you to burn more calories even while sleeping.

To build that muscle, you have to feed it, so consuming more to burn more isn't necessarily out in left field as far as nutritional science goes.

Exercise causes the body want more food.

I know it happens to me - after I work really hard, I'm very very hungry after, and I end up eating too much.

You can eat as much chicken and broccoli as you want!

Someone posted an NYT article that linked to a good study.

bs. How many fat joggers do you see?

It's pretty simple - burn more fat, eat less crap.

How many no handed pianists do you see?

It's pretty simple - playing the piano causes limb regrowth.

Are you saying that once you're fat, it's impossible to exercise? I don't buy that.

If you're thin is it impossible to eat?

I'm suggesting that the explanation "you don't see fat joggers because fat people don't jog" is as or more likely than the explanation "you don't see fat joggers because anyone who takes up jogging becomes thin so quickly that nobody sees them during the time when they are fat and jogging".

If fat people took up jogging and became thin, you would see fat joggers.

So the issue isn't that exercise doesn't work, it's that either fat people don't take up jogging, or that exercise does make you thin.

Which was my point.

i am an overweight jogger. of course, i have lost 20 lbs since i started jogging, so we'll see how long that lasts ;)

I think what he is saying is that your views are very black and white, and it's just not that simple. Maybe my definition of fat is different than yours, after working at a tech company for 5 years, but when I think fat I think 300lbs+, not 200lbs with a beer gut that can be jogged off in a few weeks. Some of these people have trouble walking to their cars without some kind of assistance, what is your solution for them? But hey, way to generalize a whole lot of people. Fat is fat, right?

Obviously the solution is to not get into that state in the first place. But granted, easier said than done for some people.

I'm talking about fat - able to exercise if you try. Not talking about morbidly obese.

Overweight people tend to have joint issues that make running really painful. With respect, I don't think it is nearly so simple.

If you assume that's a causation rather than a correlation do the world a favor and don't go into science.

Alternatively, he could do himself a favor and _do_ go into science. Or however that sentence should have been formed.

Then he'd learn about the difference.

My point is, if fat people jog, they don't stay fat for long.

Perhaps I should have been clearer. But I'm lazy.

Yeah, but evidence suggests that isn't true. Studies of people trying to lose weight show that those who exercise and those who don't lose the same amount if you control for eating.

People who cut out calories and exercise lose the same as people who cut out calories and don't. People who exercise without changing eating habits don't lose weight, just like those who do nothing at all.

It's best obviously to do both though. You really don't want saggy skin falling off your body all over the place...

Might be survivor bias - if you are fat, you can't run very well, so maybe few fatties keep running.

That's like saying "If you don't know how to play the piano, few beginner pianists go on to be able to play well".

I think it's just about determination, and wether you actually care enough about achieving the goal.

Prove it by becoming a master piano player then :-)

Also, carrot is obviously good for the eyes. After all, how many rabbits wearing glasses do you see?