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Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by izacus on Friday December 09, 2016 @07:18PM (#13143078)
I think this is a great situation to quote Linus on Linux supporters inside companies (not 100% same, but I think related):

(on litigation against companies that contribute)

> Anyone in the company that pushed to use Linux is now seen as "wrong" and instantly is pissed off that external people just messed up their employment future.

> - Anyone in the company that resisted the use of Linux (possibly in ways that caused the code not to be released over the objection of the previously mentioned people) are vindicated in their opinion of those "hippy"[2] programmers who develop Linux.

...

> Now, even if, after many years of work on your part, you do get that code, what is the end result? You have made an enemy for life from the people who brought Linux into the company, you have pissed off the people who didn't like Linux in the first place as they were right and yet you "defeated" them. Both of those groups of people will now work together to never use Linux again as they don't want to go through that hell again, no matter what.

(source and context: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-discuss/... )

...

I think this is the worst part of this SNAFU - Dave has just proven every naysayer in AMD right that Linux is not worth supporting. He cut away feet from the team that has supported and fought for an equivalent opensource driver support on Linux which would be released in lockstep with Windows releases. He has also proven right everyone on nVidia which has talked against opensourcing their drivers and keeping them as a horrendous binary blob. He has also pissed off his greatest ally inside AMD.

All with a single "no". Not "We can't accept this, let's talk about how to make us both happy". With that he gave new ammunition to every manager at every large hardware corporation that's fighting against opensourcing their drivers and made every Linux supporting team lead in such corporation less likely to push opensource world forward. It seems we're stuck in shitty Android kernel forks with shitty GPU binary blobs in near future, with only Windows as a proper contender for good 3D performance.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not blaming Dave for refusing the patch for tech cases. I AM blaming him for refusing it so flatly and not actively working more with AMD to get the situation fixed. This is not a minor thing - having stable AMD drivers in kernel would really push Linux desktop forward, make sure Linux is compatible with several Macs among other machines and put pressure on nVidia to opensource theirs. But you don't get there by belittling contributors and cultivating "us vs. them" mentality.

Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by forgottenpass on Friday December 09, 2016 @08:43PM (#13143513)
All with a single "no". Not "We can't accept this, let's talk about how to make us both happy". With that he gave new ammunition to every manager at every large hardware corporation [...] I'm not blaming Dave for refusing the patch for tech cases. I AM blaming him for refusing it so flatly and not actively working more with AMD to get the situation fixed.

He's been giving the "let's talk about how to make us both happy" answers for months and months. That's not a single "no." That's not flat. What that is, is a lot of design review and "soft nos." (I do still agree that it's ammunition. People who are looking for a reason not to contribute to the kernel will have no problem using this email out of context either.)

Other than eventually "taking one for the team," caving, and merging what AMD wants, what level of support are you talking about here? As far as I can tell, your post takes the stance that a "hard no" to any patchset is going too far.

Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by plorkyeran on Friday December 09, 2016 @07:29PM (#13143143)
> Not "We can't accept this, let's talk about how to make us both happy".

He gave them that answer 6 months ago, and they ignored it. This was not an abrupt rejection out of nowhere.

Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by izacus on Friday December 09, 2016 @07:30PM (#13143152)
The "answer" 6 months ago was "Yeah, you'll have to write a full Linux driver yourself and maintain it." type deal.

It was unreasonable then as it is now.

If I tell you "You need to rewrite your product in Brainfuck or I'll kick you out in 6 months.", the fact that I told you that doesn't make it any less insane.

Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by prodigal_erik on Friday December 09, 2016 @10:23PM (#13143838)
AMD is trying to merge a Windows driver with enough shims to make it sort of interact with Linux. That might as well be written in Brainfuck from the point of view of a Linux kernel hacker trying to figure out WTF it does.

To merge a driver into the kernel is to accept responsibility for maintaining it, which they recognize they are not prepared or even interested in doing.

Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by makomk on Saturday December 10, 2016 @07:15AM (#13145317)
They've made it clear that this code doesn't come from the Windows driver, it was specifically written with the intention of being usable on any platform. Also, they seem quite willing to maintain it. The problem is that the Linux developers aren't willing to merge code that's usable on anything other than Linux.
Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by prodigal_erik on Saturday December 10, 2016 @06:13PM (#13148468)
Thanks for the correction. They aren't relying upon a Windows API that Linux kernel hackers have no experience with, but instead a new API that nobody has experience with. That's still a huge problem for the maintenance that in-kernel drivers need; they can't have a driver which only one company understands.
Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by trome on Saturday December 10, 2016 @04:18AM (#13144834)
This was pitched by AMD as "Yeah, our new proprietary driver can use the same kernel stub as the libre driver" with minor modifications a year ago, and instead what was delivered was a giant HAL that only AMD can maintain. I get why its not being mainlined, this is AMD's screwup.
Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by serge2k on Friday December 09, 2016 @07:43PM (#13143210)
> I can respect your technical points and if you kept it to that, I'd be fine with it and we could have a technical discussion starting there.

Why is that so unreasonable?

Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by quickben on Friday December 09, 2016 @10:12PM (#13143796)
By the look of it, he's trying to be reasonable now; after half a year of hope that the code will just get checked in because it's coming from AMD, regardless of quality.

If I recall correctly, Google tried the same thing some time ago and it didn't go well for them either.

Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by matt4077 on Friday December 09, 2016 @07:49PM (#13143245)
That argument is too broad, because it could be used against /any/ effort to get code into the kernel by a large corp.

Linux is no longer in the weak position it once was. It has won the war for server market share (at least to a degree where using it has nothing to do with being a "hippy" programmer), and it has lost the desktop war so thoroughly that at this point it really doesn't matter anymore.

In this position, Linux can live without AMD drivers, probably more so than AMD can.

Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by themaninthedark on Saturday December 10, 2016 @10:53AM (#13146181)
A lot of people are unhappy with Windows 10 and would love to switch.

Now if Linux only wants to be a server OS then that is fine but if it wants to try and grow then it does need either AMD or Nvidia. I think that for now Nvidia will continue to do what they have always done(binary blob) but if AMD gains market share by being more open then Nvidia will respond in turn.

Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by pjmlp on Monday December 12, 2016 @05:31AM (#13157091)
GNU/Linux will never be anything more than a server or embedded device OS.

Anyone that is serious about graphics programming is on Windows and Mac.

I learned the hard way that the way that FOSS religion and graphis programming industry don't mix (lost a few job opportunities due to that).

As for the movie industry, they basically have heavily customised GNU/Linux workstations, using the workflows they ported from SGI workstations into GNU/Linux.

Re:AMD responds to Linux kernel maintainer's rejection of AM... by zznneezznnee on Friday December 09, 2016 @07:32PM (#13143167)
This is nonsense, a NACK is nowhere near the table-flip you're portraying here.