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Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by alec on Friday April 30, 2010 @11:24AM (#1308380)
"A patent pool is being assembled to go after Theora and other “open source” codecs now."

That's kind of scary.

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by riferguson on Friday April 30, 2010 @11:36AM (#1308422)
Presumably it would be the holders of the putatively infringed patents that would be assembling the "pool". I don't think Apple is in the Video Codec patent-holding business. As a major licensee of H.264, you'd have to presume Apple be in a position to know if someone else was rounding up the usual suspects.
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by vetinari on Friday April 30, 2010 @11:53AM (#1308488)
Apple is not only licensee, but also licensor.

Every time you license H.264 (or something other from MPEG-4 pool), a cut goes to Apple (also to Microsoft and Nokia).

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by riferguson on Friday April 30, 2010 @12:07PM (#1308539)
I stand corrected.

Apple has one patent in the H.264 pool, US 7292636, and one in the MPEG-4 Systems pool, US 6134243. I have no idea if either of these would be relevant to Theora.

For what it's worth, there are hundreds of patents in the total MPEG-LA pool.

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by samps on Friday April 30, 2010 @01:34PM (#1308803)
> For what it's worth, there are hundreds of patents in the total MPEG-LA pool.

Furthermore, it's not clear what Apple would stand to gain by enforcing its two patents that may or may not be relevant to Theora. Maybe I'm wrong, but media patent enforcement doesn't seem to be one of Apple's core businesses (HTC lawsuit notwithstanding). There are plenty of other companies, though, that likely have a vested interest in protecting their much-larger video patent portfolios.

I think it would be wrong to assume at this point that Apple is instigating patent litigation against Theora. Occam's razor would encourage the view that Apple knows the people who want to take down Theora and is rationally fearful of them.

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by jcl on Friday April 30, 2010 @02:17PM (#1308937)
Apple stands to gain more than just licensing fees by threatening any non-H.264 codec. As Steve Jobs points out in his "Thoughts on Flash", Apple has millions of devices in the wild whose hardware is optimized exclusively for H.264. If any other video format gains dominance, the devices will not work nearly as well (cutting the battery life by half just to play an older codec, in his example).
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by samps on Friday April 30, 2010 @03:15PM (#1309109)
It's a good point that Apple's mobile devices are invested in H.264, but do you really think that -- were Theora successful and safe from litigation -- Apple wouldn't put a hypothetical Theora decoder in the iPhone? It doesn't seem rational to me to oppose Theora just because current hardware doesn't support it. Consider, for example, how Apple has largely left FireWire (its own technology) behind in favor of USB. Apple is a very "out with the old" company.
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by Terretta on Friday April 30, 2010 @02:50PM (#1309040)
No, his example referenced a little known fact about H.264, comparing hardware decodable H.264 versus non-hardware-decodable H.264. The iPhone isn't playing some other codec.

H.264 can be encoded, using the same tools, in a way that can, or cannot, be hardware decoded.

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by jcl on Friday April 30, 2010 @03:58PM (#1309245)
I was pretty sure he was referring to VP6-encoded Flash video, not some version of H.264 that is harder to decode. Could you provide more information on non-hardware-decodable versions?
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by Terretta on Friday April 30, 2010 @05:20PM (#1309441)
VP6-encoded Flash video doesn't run on the iPhone, so that's not what he was referring to.

I believe Jobs is talking about comparing two videos on the iPhone, with hardware accelerated video lasting 10 hours and non-accelerated video lasting 5 hours. You may not notice if you're not paying attention to battery while you watch video.

To the sibling comment here, I'm not referring to profiles. I'm referring to the fact that various implementations of H.264 encoders produce content that, depending on the implementation, may or may not be accelerated by the iPhone's PowerVR SGX 535.

One can produce a pair of H.264 encoded in .mp4 container movies, encoded from the same mpeg2ts original, one of which can use hardware acceleration, and the other of which cannot.

(I haven't had the chance to check yet if Adobe's 'Gala' responds the same way to such files on the desktop Macs Gala supports.)

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by vetinari on Friday April 30, 2010 @04:07PM (#1309273)
He probably means H.264 profiles.

iPhone (and Android phones) can decode only certain profiles (Baseline), and up to certain levels (depending on resolution). Even hardware assisted decoding with PC graphics cards can accelerate only up to certain level (usually [email protected], but some nvidias can decode high@5).

The rest is more complex than hardware assisted decoders are able to decode and pure software codec has to be used.

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by astrange on Friday April 30, 2010 @05:25PM (#1309449)
iPhone supports High profile just fine.
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by vetinari on Friday April 30, 2010 @08:38PM (#1309862)
IPhone does not support high profile by any stretch of imagination. Why don't you go and check Apple documentation? There's a technote for that.

Or just try playing high@ video on iphone.

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by astrange on Sunday May 02, 2010 @07:40PM (#1313514)
http://120fps.org/l_high3.mp4

I copied this [email protected] file out of my iTunes library and it successfully syncs to my 3GS.

I can't get it to play over Wifi, while I can get a [email protected] file to play, but I think this has something to do with not enforcing some bitrate limit rather than the profile.

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by ZeroGravitas on Saturday May 01, 2010 @03:48AM (#1310266)
iPhones don't even support Main profile (though some suggest that the 3GS actually has enough power to do so, it's only software limited by Apple to keep the line homogenous).

Search for "Baseline Profile" on this page for the full details:

http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by kierank on Friday April 30, 2010 @12:42PM (#1308651)
MPEG-4 Systems is not offered any more (since it's effectively dead).
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by vetinari on Friday April 30, 2010 @02:05PM (#1308907)
"Systems" is mp4 container.

Did you mean MPEG-4 Part 2 (Advanced Simple Profile)?

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by kierank on Friday April 30, 2010 @03:12PM (#1309104)
The things which are patented generally apply to parts of the spec that have never been deployed.
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by 10ren on Friday April 30, 2010 @12:15PM (#1308569)
Google purchased the creators (On2 Technologies) of the basis (VP3) of Theora. http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2010/04/google-will-open-so...

Now, just because you create something doesn't mean it doesn't infringe on someone's patent (read: it could infringe a patent). However, google presumably did some serious due-diligence before forking over their measly $133M, especially on the patent position. That doesn't make mean they're right, but it does mean that they think the patent position is pretty strong. Of course, they would have focused on VP8, the one they bought, not Theora's VP3 (and which might infringe due to subsequent open-source additions.)

Google might open source VP8 on May 19-20 http://www.reelseo.com/html5-vp8-google/

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by CamperBob on Friday April 30, 2010 @08:54PM (#1309887)
At which point Google gets to find out what patents VP8 infringes.

Ballsy move.

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by davidw on Friday April 30, 2010 @11:28AM (#1308389)
Is it real? I am no fan of Apple or Jobs, but it almost sounds too evil.

Edit: in reply to a "tweet" of mine, he posted the headers:

http://hugoroy.eu/jobs-os.php

It's really hard to believe they'd be such arrogant jerks as to go after something open source like that.

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by chc on Friday April 30, 2010 @02:50PM (#1309042)
This isn't "Apple" or "Jobs" going after anyone. Jobs is stating that members of MPEG-LA plan to do so. If Steve Jobs mentioning that other people plan to sue is an example of Jobs being "evil," then logically you must be evil too since you have also mentioned the potential lawsuit.
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by ovi256 on Friday April 30, 2010 @02:01PM (#1308889)
Do you have any proof that the "arrogant jerks" at Apple go after Theora themselves ? Steve Jobs did not state it anywhere. Way to get worked up over the wrong guys.
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by stingraycharles on Friday April 30, 2010 @12:00PM (#1308514)
And on top of that, I'm pretty sure webkit infringes at least some patents too, which is used as an example of Apple supporting and contributing to open source. So he's using double standards again.
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by papachito on Friday April 30, 2010 @05:10PM (#1309421)
Actually, theora devs have been asking for the patent pool for a long time so they can work around patents once and for all http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1309412

So this is excellent news for Theora, as it could be an end to the "submarine patent" FUD.

[deleted]
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by snth on Friday April 30, 2010 @11:31AM (#1308402)
He didn't say Apple was assembling this patent pool.
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by Indyan on Friday April 30, 2010 @11:38AM (#1308434)
But presumably, Apple is going to be a part of it. Remember that Apple does have stake in MPEG-LA.
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by rictic on Friday April 30, 2010 @01:55PM (#1308873)
As mentioned above, Apple has one patent out of hundreds in the H.264 pool, and one patent in MPEG-4 Systems Pool.

Maybe they'll be a part of it and maybe they won't, but it doesn't sound like they're big players in the video patent space.

Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by nirmal on Friday April 30, 2010 @11:30AM (#1308396)
That's one interpretation. Another is that some other entity is gathering patents to use against Theora.
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by alec on Friday April 30, 2010 @11:37AM (#1308429)
Seems reasonable to assume it's the big player in video patents, MPEG LA. Apple has contributed patents to their pool.
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by DrSprout on Friday April 30, 2010 @11:40AM (#1308445)
If this is legit, Apple almost certainly owns some of the patents involved, even if they're not the instigator.
Re:Open Letter to Steve Jobs (and a reply) by lallysingh on Friday April 30, 2010 @02:51PM (#1309045)
When I read Steve's response, I didn't see anything implying that Apple would be involved. Even if they have some patents, they don't have to enforce them.