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Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by brilliantcode on Monday November 28, 2016 @04:28PM (#13058586)
I'm not sure about this. It's going to be so disastrous, reminiscent of Cultural Revolution in some spiritual form, to try to force human nature into quantifiable scoring system that relies on subjective truth that is determined by a central government.

Then again this is China, people have no way of speaking out against their government without risking their lives, and the government has no obligation other than maintaining their power over the population.

I almost feel as if Xi is losing his grip on the population by introducing drastic internal policies like this that only names goals that appear to benefit the greater good but almost certainly driving his own agenda, even if it earns the ire of his surrounding peers.

A foreign policy analysis of Xi's external facing policies are almost certainly always to further his internal grip which explains the bizarre & seemingly counter-productive positions he took against North Korea and South China Sea, that further drove neighbouring countries to America's arms....but with strange turn of events it seems that they will be undone from Trump's camp, much to the delight of Putin & Xi.

Time will tell, but it's doubtful we will have anything but a government mouthpiece statician announcing the success of such policies.

It's tough to know the real truth in societies where it is actively suppressed and manipulated by a single central entity. It's also difficult to say how long such systems will last without continuously taking on more risky and expensive internal policies that lags behind changing technology that disseminates information.

but what's that saying? The person wielding the biggest stick in the room is the source of truth implying force is always the lowest common denominator in human societies. Afterall, America wouldn't be where it is today without its 14 nuclear powered floating airports with the most advanced weapon technologies that casts a shadow on any port it chooses to refuel in.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by emodendroket on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:49PM (#13059116)
> I'm not sure about this. It's going to be so disastrous, reminiscent of Cultural Revolution in some spiritual form, to try to force human nature into quantifiable scoring system that relies on subjective truth that is determined by a central government.

I mean, is it so different from a privately-issued credit score? Transunion isn't a government agency but your credit score can keep you from certain jobs and apartments in addition to loans.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by morgante on Monday November 28, 2016 @10:02PM (#13060416)
Yes, it's extremely different. Comparing credit scores to China's political score is so nonsensical it's almost a joke.

They are both scores which are used for a variety of purposes. That's as far as the similarity goes.

The credit bureaus have a tiny slice of information. In reality, they know almost nothing about you besides your debts. They certainly don't know your politics.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by seanmcdirmid on Monday November 28, 2016 @07:32PM (#13059695)
My credit score in the USA probably doesn't prevent me from getting on an airplane.

Jay walking or speaking out against the government online will probably not affect my credit score.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by mac01021 on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @01:03AM (#13061194)
It's not clear from the article that either of those will happen in the PRC either.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by powerapple on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @03:29AM (#13061686)
It happens. When you are owing debts and do not pay, the system will ban you from high cost living, such as 4,5 star hotels, flights, high-speed trains.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by Inthenameofmine on Monday November 28, 2016 @08:39PM (#13060011)
Then again, there have been reports pointing to the US gov requesting social media accounts for scanning for visa waiver countries.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by seanmcdirmid on Monday November 28, 2016 @08:49PM (#13060048)
Israel already does that for sure. The USA already has the right to reuse entry to non citizens for any reason, or no reason at all, just like every other country. Nothing has changed recently as far as I can tell.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by superuser2 on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:28PM (#13060794)
Yes. Credit scores measure the extent to which you repay your debt. China is talking about measuring your loyalty to the state.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by MichaelMoser123 on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @02:58AM (#13061577)
China is leading the way in the use of snooping + big data for social control. The problem is that the rest of the world is steadily catching up. Once upon a time the great firewall of China looked very outlandish, however with the snooping laws in the UK i wonder if that will be the next step: of course we do need a national firewall to protect us from cyber terrorism/state sponsored attacks, any objections? Now lets imagine another real estate crash - of course we will need an aggregated credit rating after that.

Not to mention that China has a real problem with bad credit, the technocratic solution is to look at snooping & big data as the fix: a very modern approach.

Also i don't think that the technocrats who are ruling China have much in common with the cultural revolution: for example Deng Xiaoping was purged twice during the cultural revolution (i wonder how he survived the first purge).

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by hackuser on Monday November 28, 2016 @06:27PM (#13059327)
Is Xi's behavior any different than the nationalist, populist, authoritarian trends elsewhere, just applied to a different context?

Based on what I've read, the South China Sea policies make sense from a certain point of view, that China is the dominant power in the region who can dictate to others without negotiation, and eventually their neighbors must accept that. (That was China's position until the Opium Wars in the mid-19th century demonstrated that China lacked the military power to dictate to or even resist Western nations.) If that is China's long-term plan, then it's the right approach to dictate the status of the South China Sea and view resistance as short-term and ultimately futile. Negotiating would undermine China's standing.

It's a backward point of view: The world and China do much better when we manage conflict via democratic institutions based on rights than by might-makes-right. Who longs for the days of great power wars?

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by vtange on Monday November 28, 2016 @07:18PM (#13059608)
IMO it's not Xi that's similar to the current nationalism trend, his China IS the reason it exists. China today is the shining example of how economically successful a country can get by just focusing on the cold hard numbers - no refugees, no human rights, no foreign aid, etc.

For years their argument against the West was about why we spend so much time and resources trying to push our ideals to others, when we could take a practical path and be more successful economically

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by kevin_thibedeau on Monday November 28, 2016 @07:54PM (#13059817)
> why we spend so much time and resources trying to push our ideals to others.

Because that creates political friction, leading to conflict, leading to profitable arms sales. So much of the US's cavalier foreign policy is geared toward propping up the MIC between the periodic big wars it takes on for itself. Eisenhower's warning came true and nobody is doing anything about it.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by hackuser on Monday November 28, 2016 @08:02PM (#13059863)
Many people genuinely care about human rights and believe they are universal. I know that I do.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by eli_gottlieb on Monday November 28, 2016 @09:55PM (#13060387)
Thank you for your kindness, no ifs, ands, or buts.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by hackuser on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:23PM (#13060768)
Thank you. To be clear, it's not out of kindness; it's a responsibility and a necessity. It's even basic evolutionary psychology: I want my genes to survive, and they are much more likely to survive in a world of human rights than the pre-modern one of nationalism and might-makes-right.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by tfcata on Monday November 28, 2016 @09:31PM (#13060262)
Thank you for your kindness. But it's none of your business.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by hackuser on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:08PM (#13060704)
> it's none of your business

This is a common argument used by those who want to oppress others; here's the flaw in it:

I agree! It is none of my business and that's the whole point of liberty: Individuals should have self-determination; that is, freedom. Their choices and interests are none of my business, and they are none of their oppressors' business either.

If they don't have the self-determination to control their own lives and express their own interests, then often there isn't much they can do to get it; their oppressors hold the power. That's when other people have a responsibility not to close their eyes to oppression but to do something about it. The goal is not to tell the oppressed what to do, but to give them the freedom to decide and act for themselves.

I know I have my self-determination and freedom because of the efforts and sacrifices generations of others have made for me; millions have paid with their lives and their fortunes; more gave up careers, went to jail, suffered ostracism, torture and worse; generations made it their jobs to make laws, creating institutions and more to ensure I have my freedom today. Is my response that it is none of their business? Or do I have a share of the work to do?

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by powerapple on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @03:36AM (#13061711)
people care as long as they are not losing anything. that's how Trump won.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by hackuser on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @11:31AM (#13064050)
> people care as long as they are not losing anything

That's certainly true of some people, but note all the people throughout history (e.g., in my prior comment) who have made great sacrifices for it. If nobody was willing to sacrifice, there would be no freedom or democracy today.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by brilliantcode on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @06:32PM (#13067159)
Society is judged by how they treat the lowest ranking members and issues. There's a stark difference between West & East here.

It's simply a matter of affordability, the West can afford to care about human rights, refugees, giving foreign aid because it can and it believes that it's not a question of politics but an evolution of thinking that emerged as a result of 200+ years of world wide colonialism.

It's interesting to see that the East has been unable to take the same route but it's slowly changing in developed democracies like Japan and South Korea.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by nabla9 on Monday November 28, 2016 @04:36PM (#13058642)
Credit scores have existed long time in the West. This just extends the idea. I live in country where positive credit scores are not allowed and I think US type credit score is creepy, but people used to it seem not to care.

My fear is that it works all too well, especially in Chinese society.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by brilliantcode on Monday November 28, 2016 @04:37PM (#13058649)
Credit score is based on financial and measurable context.

Giving people brownie points for "being nice" or "not shitting in the streets" seems like a different ball game.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by gph on Monday November 28, 2016 @04:55PM (#13058769)
Not to mention it's mostly been recently that people/companies have started using Credit Scores outside the context of applying for a loan.

And IMO they should stop using it outside that context. People shouldn't have to worry about whether they can find a job or apartment based on having poor credit. Turns it into a game that everyone is forced to play instead of a simple metric that financial institutions can use to determine your credit-worthiness.

I've never had bad credit, but when I started working office jobs I actually went out and got a credit card I didn't need just so I could use it a few times and pay it off in full at the end of each month. Completely worthless process that I had to involve myself in simply to build my credit up. What a joke.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by headcanon on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:11PM (#13058865)
Credit score for an apartment seems reasonable, though - you're paying a non-trivial amount of money per month, and apartments want to minimize evictions - they just want to know if you can pay. I've been in a situation where my credit score was bad, but I provided an offer letter for my new job (which indicated that my future situation won't be like my past) and it was fine.

Where I can see it failing is for people who live "outside" the system - I have a friend who refuses to uses banks and deals only in cash and ancient coins - he can't find an above-the-board place to live because of his lack of credit score. But with that said, he does have a high risk of not being able to make rent on time, so its difficult to say what the policy should be.

As for finding a job, I don't know of any instance where a poor credit score would prevent you from getting a job, other than getting a security clearance, but that also seems reasonable since the government wants to know if you have any blackmail-able "money troubles" that an enemy actor can take advantage of.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by weerd on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:26PM (#13058965)
The problem I've had is that there is effectively no difference between bad credit and no credit. It is entirely possible to be a financially responsible person (who exists in the "system" with a bank account) and still be denied housing. This forces people to get credit cards.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by avn2109 on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:35PM (#13059030)
>> "This forces people to get credit cards."

That's the point. They designed the system of incentives and constraints to make you their customer.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by gph on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:21PM (#13058933)
Yea, no one takes it too seriously for employment (which makes me wonder why they even do it most the time). I doubt I would have lost out on any jobs if I had bad credit, it probably wasn't really necessary for me to build up my credit (other than being good for getting car/home loans now).

But your second point is largely what I was getting at. People who don't want that to be a part of their life are starting to run into barriers to leading a normal life. At this point credit scores are used rather casually and don't have that high of consequences. But the trend is in the wrong direction, and I'm firmly against it continuing in the same way as the Chinese are bringing it.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by lettergram on Monday November 28, 2016 @06:28PM (#13059331)
If you had bad credit and a large amount of debt no bank or federal positions that deal with finances or money would be open for you.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by morgante on Monday November 28, 2016 @10:05PM (#13060435)
> I have a friend who refuses to uses banks and deals only in cash and ancient coins

I don't need a credit score to tell me I probably don't want this person as a tenant. They're a huge eviction risk (no system = no fallback for short-term cashflow issues), not to mention that I don't want to be dealing with hundreds of dollars in cash rent.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by pavel_lishin on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:17PM (#13058899)
I think hiring someone and leasing an apartment to someone are two different things; leasing an apartment to someone is taking on a financial risk in that you have to judge whether they can pay you or not on a monthly basis, not too different from a loan.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by ams6110 on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:11PM (#13060714)
People with bad credit scores tend to be irresponsible in general, have unstable personal lives and are generally less reliable. They might not be someone you want as an employee especially if the position requires any significant training.

As an employer I would view it as a red flag, not disqualifiying but it would take some other evidence and good references to offset it.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by pavel_lishin on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @11:39AM (#13064106)
> People with bad credit scores tend to be irresponsible in general

I'm gonna be that guy: [citation needed]

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by imagetcha on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @01:38AM (#13061329)
I 100% agree. I'm sorry, but my credit worthiness has nothing to do with my ability to perform a job, or how well I can drive my car. Auto insurance also uses credit. Again I sat, Irrelevant uses...
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by superuser2 on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:30PM (#13060809)
An apartment lease is functionally the same thing as a loan: you need to pay $x every month. The landlord has a legitimate interest in how likely you are to do so.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by baka on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:21PM (#13058927)
Well, correct my if I'm wrong, but in some states the US you can also get a criminal record from public intoxication or urination and in the later case be required to register as a sex offender?
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by gph on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:29PM (#13058998)
You're correct, but I don't see how that has any relevance?
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by mahyarm on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:50PM (#13059122)
A credit score for "not shitting on the streets"?
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by baka on Monday November 28, 2016 @07:44PM (#13059769)
Yes, that was essentially my point. If something goes on your record you will presumably have a harder time getting jobs or renting rooms, especially if your already have low status. Presumably the reason to make these punishments "more harsh" than the damage of the crime is to enforce social behavior. In some way that seem more harsh then the Chinese version. Even if China is worse in most ways, it's sometimes more relaxed than the US when it comes to personal freedoms.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by serge2k on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:48PM (#13059110)
SEE THE US IS BAD TOO.

Seems to come up a lot when reminders of China being ruled by a totalitarian regime come along

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by vacri on Monday November 28, 2016 @07:34PM (#13059708)
The US does have a track record of being blase about its officers of the peace killing people in the streets, for example. The US has fantastic freedom of speech and expression, but it also sends SWAT teams into peoples' houses and cheers the purchase of tanks for its police departments. Similarly, police can legally just take your money if they feel like it.

Yes, the US is not as bad as China as a place to live (look at the migration flow between them for simple proof), but it's worth noting that the same way people explain away the US's flaws can be done in other countries as well.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by frugalmail on Monday November 28, 2016 @09:28PM (#13060250)
I believe you're unfairly characterizing the US being "blase about its officers of the peace killing people in the streets" there were approximately 990 people killed by police in 2015 and 2016. In a country of 325M with the focus on highly dense urban areas. In a particular segment that constitutes less than a quarter of those deaths there has been heavy rioting and police officers hunted and murdered as a result.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by vacri on Monday November 28, 2016 @10:48PM (#13060625)
You are 'explaining away the US's flaws'. Here's a per capita comparison between police killings in the US, UK, Germany, and Australia:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2016/07/08/us-police-shoo...

And you say riots and police being hunted? There is violent unrest in China, too. In both the US and China, the middle-class and the folks in power just hand-wave away the concerns of the victimised demographics, finding excuses for the state's poor treatment of them.

As many people are mocking and blocking #blacklivesmatter as are supporting it. What are those in power actually doing in response to the upset demographics in the US? Hot air. Nada. Zilch. Zip. Nothing with any real bite. Hence, blase.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by mjevans on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:52PM (#13059141)
You can, but I think that the proper punishment for such actions would be 'a mark' on your legal identification listing you as unfit for 'recreational chemicals'. You'd be on probation for N number of years, and if you were otherwise a good citizen you'd have that 'fall off' your record. Actively violating that during the probation period would mark you as an offender (dangerous to society); though 'incidental' violation (E.G. ordering a food item that happens to have some residual) wouldn't.

The 'third strike' should, irrespective, mark you as a dangerous member of society, though depending on circumstances some stronger treatment might result in a different outcome.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by vacri on Monday November 28, 2016 @07:30PM (#13059678)
Pissing in public puts you on probation for years, and doing so three times in total (or once more in your years of probation) = dangerous member of society?

I'm scared to think of what your utopia looks like.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by mtgx on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:02PM (#13058809)
It's funny you mention that, because it seems that everytime China passes a new draconian law these days, it says "we're just updating our laws to be in line with US anti-terror/public safety/etc laws" or something along those lines.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by imagetcha on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @01:35AM (#13061316)
>us type credit score is creepy Lol... I guess it is. It makes sense, to most of us on the why's, if not the how's of the credit score applications. Not all who use it agree with it. There's no choice in the matter. Unfortunately, credit scores are used for things irrelevant to debt paying history as well. So... hmm. I think I share your fear. And raise ya, in that perhaps the US could also abuse such a system after seeing how China applies it, and it's effects.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by serge2k on Monday November 28, 2016 @04:52PM (#13058753)
You don't get bad credit for jaywalking or whatever is suggested. It's a tool to measure your ability to repay debt. I think it's already abused, but it's nothing liek what is talked about in the article.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by mikeash on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:09PM (#13058852)
Playing devil's advocate here: you get bad credit for perfectly legal behavior that companies just happen to dislike, whereas stuff like jaywalking is at least an actual crime.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by sigstoat on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:36PM (#13059032)
you get bad credit for failing to do what you voluntarily promised you'd do. you get good credit merely for following through on your promises.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by callalex on Monday November 28, 2016 @08:39PM (#13060008)
This is not accurate. My credit score is quite low for a person with zero debt and great financial standing, because I don't have a credit card. I am being punished for not buying a product that I have no need for.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by ams6110 on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:22PM (#13060760)
Simply having a credit card doesn't cost anything. You're choosing to live your life in a way that is contrary to what our society has determined is a positive financial profile. If you're trying to make some kind of point, or protest something, fine -- but then don't complain about being "punished."
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by sangnoir on Wednesday November 30, 2016 @01:59AM (#13068995)
When was the vote / referendum on this where "society" made this determination?

At most, a few credit ratings company made this decision and "society" tolerates it for convenience. An equally workable system would be to to default to a high score and deduct points for bad behavior, but this would be bad for business as it wouldn't force people to get credit they don't need.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by rconti on Monday November 28, 2016 @08:36PM (#13059997)
I'm sure there are all kinds of legitimate reasons you can get bad credit, before we even get into all of the mistakes that could be made.

One of my credit cards gives me monthly updates on my credit score. It always lists 3 positive and 3 negative factors impacting my score, no matter how good the score.

Currently one of the 3 negatives is "highest credit card limit too low". Not debt:available. Just straight up "too low a credit limit on your highest-limit card". And yet, I could buy an entry level luxury car on several of my credit cards.

I'm not implying that a silly ding on my credit like that is as 'serious' as delinquent payments, but... well, the truth is, I have no idea. And isn't that the point?

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by literallycancer on Monday November 28, 2016 @05:39PM (#13059059)
How is it for someone with no credit history at all (say, someone who doesn't use credit cards because they have enough of their own resources)?
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by ams6110 on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:23PM (#13060769)
Better than having demonstrated bad credit. Not as good as having demonstrated good credit. Of course, in most situations actually being able to pay cash negates any of it.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by jedmeyers on Monday November 28, 2016 @08:57PM (#13060093)
> nuclear powered

> any port it chooses to refuel in

Do we have a lot of ports to refuel nuclear powered aircraft carriers?

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by gaelian on Monday November 28, 2016 @09:32PM (#13060269)
Perhaps "resupply" would have been a better word.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by brilliantcode on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @06:35PM (#13067174)
you are correct I did make a mistake there.

However, like the other comment suggested, nuclear carriers rarely travel alone without the protection of large naval assets deployed around it.

If only AI was running all of the naval air assets on a carrier, no food, self sustaining & maintaining.

I'd imagine an increase of frequency in US naval carrier groups patrolling oceans closer as a result of the cost savings of reducing manned staff with AI and robots but that's another topic.

Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by dingaling on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @06:09AM (#13062309)
Escort ships need to be refuelled; the plurality of a carrier group is oil-burning.
Re:China’s New Tool for Social Control: A Credit Rating for ... by frugalmail on Monday November 28, 2016 @09:11PM (#13060149)
It's to avoid Scurvy