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Re:Thoughts on Flash by tjogin on Thursday April 29, 2010 @10:18AM (#1304459)
John Gruber has been making these exact points. This could basically be ghost written by Gruber and we wouldn't know the difference.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by jerf on Thursday April 29, 2010 @12:25PM (#1304984)
Gruber is really Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs is really Fake Steve Jobs. Fake Steve Jobs is actually Bill Gates.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by grellas on Thursday April 29, 2010 @01:34PM (#1305250)
The latest from Fake Steve on this piece: http://www.fakesteve.net/2010/04/please-stop-thinking-about-....
Re:Thoughts on Flash by varaon on Thursday April 29, 2010 @07:51PM (#1306577)
Fake Steve raises an interesting point about how close John Gruber and Apple are.

>"...we leaked the Flash essay to our Chief Apologist John Gruber and told him to start whipping up some buzz on Twitter about it, and he followed orders [http://twitter.com/gruber/status/12988151829]."

Consider too that Steve Jobs replied to an email asking about the restriction of apps to C* with a link to a Gruber post [http://www.taoeffect.com/blog/2010/04/steve-jobs-response-on...].

Re:Thoughts on Flash by lionhearted on Thursday April 29, 2010 @04:31PM (#1305925)
Oh man, I almost spit my tea out laughing at that. Wow.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by ericb on Thursday April 29, 2010 @01:39PM (#1305269)
I'd argue that the real Steve Jobs is Bill Gates, lately. Maybe Monopolies (essentially) do that to people.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by megablast on Thursday April 29, 2010 @07:19PM (#1306473)
Apple do not have a Monopoly, unless you use a diseased meaning of the word Monopoly to mean devices produced by Apple. In that case, almost every company has a monopoly.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by ericb on Thursday April 29, 2010 @09:23PM (#1306807)
At a certain point, if you execute so much better than the competition and set yourself up differently (controlling and innovating in hardware too) and you maintain total control of your platform, you can dominate in the market to such an extent that you have a virtual monopoly.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by megablast on Thursday April 29, 2010 @11:35PM (#1307101)
Yes, but Apple do not have a monopoly in smartphones or computers. Maybe, just maybe you could say they have significant market dominance of mp3 player market, but who cares about that.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by dca on Thursday April 29, 2010 @08:06PM (#1306613)
How is it so different? Microsoft at least did not control the hardware. Apple has always been worse than Microsoft in that respect - they even wanted to control the printer at one point! The only difference now is that for some reason its working for them now and iPhone is incredibly popular. But they're much more monopolistic than Microsoft ever was, and they always have been, and I would imagine they always will be.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by gstar on Thursday April 29, 2010 @10:36AM (#1304538)
I've often wondered if Gruber's reliable contact at Apple was some guy with turtlenecks and no numberplates.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by treblig on Thursday April 29, 2010 @11:43AM (#1304800)
He did throw up this little Tweet a couple nights ago: http://twitter.com/gruber/status/12988151829
Re:Thoughts on Flash by Timothee on Thursday April 29, 2010 @12:06PM (#1304921)
And he did it at 9:42pm, iPhone's preferred (evening) time. (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1250125)
Re:Thoughts on Flash by treblig on Thursday April 29, 2010 @12:34PM (#1305014)
Keep in mind, he lives in Philadelphia, where it was 12:42am.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by jjs on Thursday April 29, 2010 @11:19PM (#1307071)
I'm sure he operates strictly on Cupertino time. ;)
Re:Thoughts on Flash by wallflower on Thursday April 29, 2010 @12:24PM (#1304980)
I think Gruber remains independent from Apple. It would be too conspiracy theory for Gruber/Daring Fireball to be a secret PR mouthpiece for Apple. More likely Apple reaches out to him because he is by far the most influential Apple website outside of Apple (MacRumors is a distant 2nd in my opinion). They don't have to pay Gruber anything; the increased ad revenue from being a member of the elite The Deck should more than compensate.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by maximilian on Thursday April 29, 2010 @01:56PM (#1305341)
More likely Apple reaches out to him because he is by far the most influential Apple website outside of Apple

I also think he is one of the most levelheaded apple-centric websites out there. Gruber talks a lot about premium products (not just apple) and their success in various markets -- DF is like a premium tech/apple/good taste blogzine and I imagine that his style appeals to a lot of people at Apple, whether they reach out to him or not (and "legally" or not)

Re:Thoughts on Flash by slantyyz on Thursday April 29, 2010 @06:36PM (#1306340)
Gruber is fantastic when he's not in "scandal" mode.

The site quality degrades significantly, however, when he latches onto a "scandal", whether it be about stolen iphones or illegitimate wi-fi security claims.

With his recent ad nauseum stolen phone coverage, DF has felt more like an overwrought Entertainment Tonight scandal episode.

I've found the best Gruber reading algorithm is:

if (post < 2 paragraphs) { worth bookmarking } else { mark as read }

Re:Thoughts on Flash by thought_alarm on Thursday April 29, 2010 @11:59AM (#1304883)
Because they're obvious points to make.

Apple's competitors have been clamoring to put Flash on their mobile devices because it's one more bullet point they can use in their marketing against the iPhone.

Yet it's 2010 and mobile Flash is still nowhere to be found. How is that not Adobe's fault?

Re:Thoughts on Flash by barrkel on Thursday April 29, 2010 @01:52PM (#1305329)
Don't lose sight of the issue. 3.3.1 is the issue, not "Flash on the iPhone". By reframing the argument as "Flash on the iPhone", you are succumbing to misdirection.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by sumeeta on Thursday April 29, 2010 @03:13PM (#1305629)
3.3.1 is an issue for developers. No Flash is actually a super huge deal for users.

I think one of the main reasons they published this was so they could respond to “iPhone doesn’t even have Flash.”

Re:Thoughts on Flash by pyre on Thursday April 29, 2010 @02:40PM (#1305507)
True enough. And Cocoa Touch is not an 'open standard.'
Re:Thoughts on Flash by davidedicillo on Thursday April 29, 2010 @05:25PM (#1306113)
Jobs never said that Cocoa is an open standard. He just state that Flash is as proprietary as Cocoa Touch. Market share =! Open.

His point is that on the mobile web, HTML5 is open, not Flash.

Re:Thoughts on Flash by pyre on Thursday April 29, 2010 @07:28PM (#1306500)
So "Flash on the Web == Bad" because it's not open, but "Flash cross-compiled apps on iPhone == Bad" because it's not... open... ? The logic doesn't match up. As has been stated, it's a misdirection. Steve Jobs is setting fire to a house on the west side of town so that no one will notice that he's robbing the bank on the east side.

He's trying to come off as an 'open crusader for the web against Adobe' because 'Adobe is not open,' but on the other hand shoving Adobe (and others) off of the i{Phone,Pad} platform because it's not part of Apple's own 'not open' environment. I hate Adobe as much as the next person, but let's not dress Steve Jobs up as a knight in shining armour just because he also doesn't like Adobe.

Re:Thoughts on Flash by GHFigs on Thursday April 29, 2010 @08:18PM (#1306650)
"Flash cross-compiled apps on iPhone == Bad" because it's not... open...

Neither stated nor implied. The logic doesn't "match up" because it's a separate issue, addressed with different arguments:

"We have discussed the downsides of using Flash to play video and interactive content from websites, but Adobe also wants developers to adopt Flash to create apps that run on our mobile devices."

He then goes on about third-party middleware, e.g.:

"We cannot be at the mercy of a third party deciding if and when they will make our enhancements available to our developers."

Jobs does not make the openness argument in reference to Apple's proprietary platform at all. It seems to me that you have to ignore the last third of the article to think that he was.

He's trying to come off as an 'open crusader for the web against Adobe'

Is Jobs lying when he says Apple supports open web standards?

Re:Thoughts on Flash by Qz on Thursday April 29, 2010 @07:41PM (#1306545)
This has nothing to do with what's open and what isn't, it's about who controls what. Apple controls iPhoneOS, Adobe controls Flash. It's a prizefight. Don't get caught in a sucker punch just because you were paying attention to the fancy footwork.
Re:Thoughts on Flash by tjogin on Thursday April 29, 2010 @12:09PM (#1304934)
I agree, but a hell of a lot of people are missing these obvious points, though. Most people with an opinion on Apple are.