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Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by Angostura on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:59AM (#13006353)
> People won't listen though because...

... they don't particularly want to lift floorboards, and drill through floors and ceilings if the wireless solution is 'good enough'.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by Declanomous on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:36AM (#13006681)
I think it is mostly because they don't understand how much better wired internet is than wireless. I've basically forced many people to connect their devices with Ethernet as a "temporary" measure to solve their problems. For the most part, every single person has decided to leave whatever it is connected. Almost all my friends rent too, which is a huge barrier to using wires, since the wires can't be hidden in the walls or ceilings.

One of the big things that people don't realize is that bandwidth of wireless is split between every device on that channel. So if you are streaming to your TV/roku/xbox/etc over wifi, you are killing the bandwidth for your laptop and phone as well. Plus, if you live in a city your wireless bandwidth is pretty much guaranteed to suck because every ISP includes wifi with their modems, destroying the noise floor. Comcast modems are a particularly notable example, as they have a "public" 2.4 ghz network in addition to the "private" 2.5 and 5 ghz networks. There are no fewer than 30 wifi networks available inside my house when I check on my phone, and I live in a row house with metal lathe under the plaster, which greatly attenuates wifi signals.

I think the biggest barrier to wiring things is that patch cables are incredibly expensive if you buy them at Best Buy, etc. Most non-technical people I know only own the patch cable that came with their modem. Once I get them wired up, they are astounded by how much faster their internet is. They don't have buffering issues, the internet doesn't drop randomly, and it just seems "faster" (which I attribute to lower latency). I toss extra patch cables in my Monoprice orders now and sell them to my friends at-cost. To be honest, it's partially for my own sanity as well, because watching Netflix at 480p on a 50/15 connection drives me nuts.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by vwoolf on Monday November 21, 2016 @04:14PM (#13009277)
I think it is mostly because they don't understand how much better wired internet is than wireless. I've basically forced many people to connect their devices with Ethernet as a "temporary" measure to solve their problems. For the most part, every single person has decided to leave whatever it is connected.

Yes. Same here. Ethernet is an oddly underrated technology. And Monoprice is one of these things that nerds know about and no one else does. There may be other companies like that—someone above mentioned an enterprise router company that sells better stuff than most consumer companies. Yet I've already forgotten its name.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by Declanomous on Monday November 21, 2016 @05:42PM (#13009930)
Probably Ubiquiti and the Edgerouter Lite. It's an amazing router, but it doesn't have an integrated switch like most consumer-grade routers. It's not quite as user-friendly either, but the performance is unmatched. It costs about ~$90 and can handle gigabit internet, and a billion packages per second. I bought one recently because I was having issues with bufferbloat and extreme latency with my run of the mill 75/15 internet service.

Ubiquiti also makes a great series of wireless APs that are worth checking out.

My network right now is a Edgerouter lite, 2 Unifi AP AC Lites, and a used Dell 2816 managed switch.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by pyre on Monday November 21, 2016 @06:16PM (#13010197)
We had a Ubiquiti wifi router in-office that would constantly refuse to allow certain devices on, or randomly drop devices and not let them back on. Apparently it was a known issue between those routers and Apple laptops so I was told.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by Declanomous on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:54PM (#13011480)
I could see that. Their implementation of zero-handoff is really strange. For instance, all the APs have to be on the same channel. I could see that causing issues.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by gwern on Monday November 21, 2016 @04:50PM (#13009544)
I didn't even understand how much better my laptop's wireless could be than my wireless, much less Ethernet. I was using a WiFi repeater to get to the old WiFi router, and eventually got frustrated with the random disconnections/freezes and began messing around. I was shocked to see my Internet speed (speedtest.net) go up substantially with a new WiFi router, and then go up to a total of 6x when I cut out the repeater using a big directional antenna - and it still wasn't equal to the numbers I was getting from plugging directly into the router with an Ethernet cable. So now despite the bother, I'm just going to run 200-feet of Ethernet cable from the router to my laptop. I knew Ethernet was better than WiFi but if I had realized just how much, I would've bitten the bullet years ago.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by digler999 on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @05:14PM (#13018157)
> I'm just going to run 200-feet of Ethernet cable from the router to my laptop.

Don't do that. Instead get a ethernet powerline adapter:

https://www.cnet.com/topics/networking/best-networking-devic...

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by gwern on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @11:03AM (#13023496)
There is no powerline connection, the router is in another building.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by Symbiote on Monday November 21, 2016 @05:58PM (#13010049)
I'm surprised a software developer doesn't know basic stuff like that a typical Ethernet connection is 1Gb/s, and WiFi around 20-200, depending on conditions.

This is like an engineer not knowing the mains voltage is 230V, or a baker not knowing about standard grades of flour.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by gwern on Monday November 21, 2016 @06:36PM (#13010318)
I knew perfectly well that Ethernet goes up to 1000 megabit/sec and WiFi generally 50-200 megabit/sec, but my reasoning was that the LAN shouldn't matter because my ISP only gives us ~6 megabytes/sec (or ~45 megabit/sec) and as far as I knew, all possible configurations easily saturated that as my laptop and repeater were the only things on WiFi with no interference from neighbors. In performance, you usually focus on the weakest link, and here the weakest link (ISP/Internet) was by far weaker than the other links.

Apparently I was grossly wrong, and I still don't understand why I was wrong and why the changes made such a large difference. Something to do with network protocols and response to packet loss or something, I guess.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by flukus on Monday November 21, 2016 @07:19PM (#13010545)
I'm not. Software developers are generally pretty ignorant of things like network latency. You often see things like caching used to improve n+1 database performance problems which doesn't really help when the cache is also on another machine.

I'm always posting latency numbers every programmer should know: https://gist.github.com/jboner/2841832

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by pyre on Monday November 21, 2016 @06:18PM (#13010214)
> Ethernet connection is 1Gb/s, and WiFi around 20-200, depending on conditions

I had no idea that WiFi was that much better than Ethernet!

( this is why units matter, kids ;)

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by equalarrow on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:17AM (#13006521)
Exactly. I have a few things wired in the house where they're actually close enough to a switch. But for phones and tables and laptops (we have several), wired is not an option.

This is also shitty news because I had very high confidence that an Apple router would not ship with any kind of malware or other crap I don't need. Now, I have to find something better, comparable in price, and works well with Mac household.. Sad face.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by Declanomous on Monday November 21, 2016 @11:37AM (#13006687)
It's important to note that wiring what you can makes the WiFi that much faster for everything else as well.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by freehunter on Monday November 21, 2016 @12:51PM (#13007338)
But when wifi is faster than 1Gbps, does it matter anymore? Obviously if you're talking servers and enterprise equipment, faster is better. But does my smart TV or iPad really need that extra little bit of speed? Netflix only streams as fast as my Internet connection, which is 60Mbps. I could have 15 devices on my network streaming Netflix each on their own dedicated Internet connection and still not saturate an 802.11ac router (theoretically).
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by Declanomous on Monday November 21, 2016 @01:31PM (#13007811)
I don't know anyone who even approaches the theoretical speed of any 802.11 technology. Your neighbors on the same channel reduce your bandwidth, and neighbors on channels which overlap yours raise the noise floor a lot. I have a Moto X Pure and a Ubiquiti Unifi AP AC Lite, and I should theoretically get 867 mbit/s. I never even approach that in practice, even if I'm in the same room. There are more than 30 available networks nearby when I look on my phone. Even if I achieved the theoretical rate, the bandwidth falls off a cliff once you leave the room, as 5ghz signals are significantly attenuated by walls. I can max out my internet (75 mbit) if I'm in the same room as my AP, but I can't stream 1080p content on the 5ghz if I have 2 walls between me and my AP.

That being said, the Apple APs are the fastest consumer-grade APs out there. If you are going to hit the theoretical maximum, an Apple AP is your best bet. I don't think streaming is where people notice issues with their internet though. In my experience people tend to notice issues in video games, skype, facetime, and other applications where there isn't a buffer to hide issues with dropped packets first.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by symfoniq on Monday November 21, 2016 @05:21PM (#13009767)
My Airport Extreme hits 750-800 mbps pretty routinely, despite my devices being able to pick up about 10 other neighborhood wifi networks.

However, I get ~950 mbps over the wire (on a 1 gbps connection), so I still plug in when I'm sitting at my desk and need to transmit large files.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by com2kid on Monday November 21, 2016 @03:38PM (#13008969)
> I don't know anyone who even approaches the theoretical speed of any 802.11 technology.

I max out my cable modem's connection. I pay for 50mb/s, and 802.11n on a 5Ghz channel is more than sufficient.

At work however, yes, that gigabit wired ethernet connection is really nice. :)

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by adiabatty on Monday November 21, 2016 @01:06PM (#13007492)
You'll get 4K Netflix eventually. Plus, theoretical speeds, not actual. Plus you'd want to buffer quickly…
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by walshemj on Monday November 21, 2016 @01:30PM (#13007796)
Good luck getting any range with 1GBS :-)
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by wahern on Monday November 21, 2016 @03:51PM (#13009082)
The new Google WiFi product uses the same secure boot procedure as Chromebook. I really like AirPort for it's simplicity, performance, and lack of a web stack. I think my new WiFi router(s) will be Google WiFi as they seem to have upped the bar on all those points.

I'm not thrilled about the autoupdate feature of Google WiFi. I wouldn't be surprised if it's leveraged to benefit Google's analytics, or for government snooping. But the greater risk at this point is from criminal hackers. And I prefer running my WiFi routers in bridging mode, anyhow, making it less likely Google will bother tracking my family's browsing from the LAN.

Maintaining my own homegrown router isn't appealing, though. For one thing, all the hardware available for that is sub-par. Solid support for MIMO and beamforming is mostly non-existent except for proprietary stacks; even simultaneous multi-channel is iffy using open source solutions. AirPort always shipped with better than average support for the latest tech, and I'm not keen on going backward in that regard, especially for what should be a performance upgrade.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by pgeorgi on Monday November 21, 2016 @04:18PM (#13009305)
> I wouldn't be surprised if it's leveraged to benefit Google's analytics, ...

https://support.google.com/wifi/answer/6246642 has a tl;dr version: "Importantly, the Google Wifi app and your Wifi points do not track the websites you visit or collect the content of any traffic on your network. However, your Wifi points does collect data such as Wi-Fi channel, signal strength, and device types that are relevant to optimize your Wi-Fi performance." and a full explanation of everything it does (or does not) collect, and why.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by aab0 on Monday November 21, 2016 @04:44PM (#13009505)
Which can be changed at any time.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by Nullabillity on Monday November 21, 2016 @12:40PM (#13007230)
> and works well with Mac household.. Sad face.

Apart from Apple's and Google's idiotic antics, what routers require anything more than a browser to configure?

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by wahern on Monday November 21, 2016 @03:15PM (#13008755)
Requiring a browser implies that the device has a full web stack on it, including one of Perl, PHP, or Node.js. That's the last thing I want on my WiFi router, or any router!

As annoying as it is for some, the configuration interface for Apple AirPort used a simple SNMP interface. Now, lots of SNMP software has had bugs and remote exploits, but all things being equal it's a much simpler interface to export and requires shipping less code, not least because it doesn't have to support a GUI, directly or indirectly.

That said, I always configure my WiFi router (AirPort or w'ever) in bridging mode and put them behind my gateway. And I try to disable any web GUI entirely if at all possible. People who use the built-in WiFi capabilities of their Cable or DSL modems are begging to be hacked.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by extra88 on Monday November 21, 2016 @04:21PM (#13009322)
> Requiring a browser implies that the device has a full web stack on it, including one of Perl, PHP, or Node.js.

Not really, CGI can be written in anything, shell scripting, C, whatever. But security-wise, it doesn't much matter the language because the programmers working on the web interfaces of such embedded devices rarely do a good job.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by Nullabillity on Monday November 21, 2016 @05:38PM (#13009900)
> That's the last thing I want on my WiFi router, or any router!

Considering the amount of crappy C most routers have, that's probably the least of your concerns.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by NickNameNick on Monday November 21, 2016 @01:35PM (#13007855)
I've seen a disturbing number of routers which have web interfaces that only work with old versions of IE.

Good luck configuring that with a mac....

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by PaulHoule on Monday November 21, 2016 @12:34PM (#13007188)
I dunno. iTunes is close to malware in my book.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by korethr on Monday November 21, 2016 @01:33PM (#13007837)
One neeed not lift floorboards, or drill through floors and ceilings to run wires. What I have done in my apartment, and what friends have done in their houses is run the wires along the base or tops of walls, tucked out of the way. Then one need not worry about pets or vacuum cleaners getting at the wires to chew them up, or getting tripped up by wires laying loose across the floor. There's a 100' meter limit for copper cables for ethernet. In my experience, that's plenty for most homes and offices, even when running along the walls.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by revscat on Monday November 21, 2016 @04:15PM (#13009282)
Can you recommend something for attaching cables to ceilings in a nondestructive manner? I also live in an apartment and this is a concern.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by baq on Monday November 21, 2016 @05:02PM (#13009634)
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by extra88 on Monday November 21, 2016 @04:32PM (#13009405)
Google "nail in cable clips." A small nail makes a small hole but if you run the cable along a wooden baseboard or molding, the holes aren't really noticeable (not like a hole in the wall from hanging a picture). There are adhesive cable clips but I've never used them, they're probably more expensive especially if they're the "Command(tm)" adhesive that's supposed to come off cleanly.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by mjevans on Monday November 21, 2016 @06:08PM (#13010134)
Properly setup command strip based hooks can work.

However most apartments let you 'hang pictures'; anything that leaves so small of a hole that painting over it effectively patches it.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by wang_li on Monday November 21, 2016 @05:15PM (#13009730)
If your rooms are carpeted, there is actually a gap between the baseboard and the floor. With care you can fit coax or cat5 in there no problem. It ends up completely hidden.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by speleding on Monday November 21, 2016 @03:09PM (#13008689)
People seem not to be very rational about it though. I know people who spend $20K and several weeks redecorating the kitchen and yet they keep futzing around and complaining about poor internet connectivity in their house that a professional could fix for well below $1K.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by pyre on Monday November 21, 2016 @06:42PM (#13010348)
Spending $20k on your kitchen can be rationalized into the resale value of your house. The wiring less so.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by Obi_Juan_Kenobi on Monday November 21, 2016 @03:24PM (#13008847)
While obviously not as good as Ethernet, the internet-over-power-cable (powerline) solutions aren't a terrible option.

In my apartment, the biggest issue I face is interference from other wireless routers. Because of this, the powerline performance is about 40% faster on my desktop (right above the router one floor) and much more consistent. It also does help with wireless congestion, and really helps with using my desktop as a PLEX server. Before, higher bitrates would cause serious issues, and now it just works.

I'm not sure if the tech has matured recently or I just had a good use-case for it, but it's miles better than WiFi. I'm using TP-Link's product.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by s_q_b on Monday November 21, 2016 @03:31PM (#13008920)
One current high-speed option is a MoCA 2.0 network through the existing coax, which has bandwidth up to 1 Gbps. I have a MoCA adapter next to each TV, wire the television through Ethernet from the adapter, and hook up a WiFi repeater as well.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by jlgaddis on Monday November 21, 2016 @06:01PM (#13010070)
I'm a network engineer so I have a "proper" setup at home: fiber-to-the-home, enterprise-class network devices (access points, switches, etc.), and so on. We were at Best Buy a while back and, while browsing around, I saw some of these "powerline" adapters on the shelf and, mostly out of curiosity, decided to buy a pair [0] of them to see how well they worked; I was doubtful of the "1200 Mbps" claim on the box.

For testing, I plugged them into AC outlets along the same wall in the same room, with ~14 feet separating them. After getting them linked up (very simple), I connected laptops to each unit, manually assigned IP addresses to the laptops, and used iPerf [1] to run throughput tests.

I'll spare you my rant about them but peak speeds were extremely disappointing, just shy of 50 Mbps. I honestly didn't expect anywhere near the advertised 1200 Mbps but I was expecting speeds relatively close to what I can get over my existing wireless. 50 Mbps may be quite acceptable to some, especially if one's Internet connection isn't that fast, but it was far from acceptable for me. They would also randomly "freeze" or "pause" for 20-30 seconds at a time but I didn't really investigate that issue.

[0]: https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/powerline/P...

[1]: https://iperf.fr

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by 4ad on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @04:31AM (#13012873)
Yeah, they have been very unreliable in my experience as well. Totally not recommend.

Also the idea of willingly putting noise in the electrical grid seems sketchy to me. I used to live in a house where I could not get good noise-free audio because the line was not a pure sine wave and most consumer PSUs were crappy to let noise through.

Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by gambiting on Tuesday November 22, 2016 @09:07AM (#13014178)
I've had powerline everywhere in the house and ended up ripping it out and just putting in ethernet cables everywhere. Powerline is really great for 99% of users, but I wanted to stream games from one PC to another, and use Remote Play form my PS4 - and over powerline, packets just had some weird random latency from time to time, making local streaming impossible. It runs very smoothly over ethernet now.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by stcredzero on Monday November 21, 2016 @12:09PM (#13006968)
I remember seeing an Ethernet like network that used infrared lasers bounced off of a particular spot on the ceiling. It should be possible to get multi-gigabyte rates out of something like that, and it should be immune to interference from the neighbors. For a game machine, you'd want to be careful where you placed the transmitter and the ceiling spot. Also, I wouldn't put it past a teenage competitive gamer to mess up a rival with an infrared laser pointed through a window.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by lostlogin on Monday November 21, 2016 @12:15PM (#13007019)
Or find that when you pay a pro to do it tidily they actually do even more of a hack job.
Re:Apple Abandons Development of Wireless Routers by VMG on Monday November 21, 2016 @01:43PM (#13007922)
powerline is an option as well