The respectable Republicans distanced themselves from Trump
Twenty-three days ago [..]
Neither he nor his supporters will agree to that now, nor will he acknowledge he was wrong. And there will be no consequences.
Most people only have eye for short term problems, don't have a good memory or good associative capabilities and don't think beyond the outcome they hope for.
Even if you are aware of longer term problems, consequences and have a good memory, you may still choose to pursue short term goals in your opinion-making, because those listening to you want you to address their immediate concerns. You don't need to worry about contradicting yourself or causing new problems: they won't notice.
So congratulations on remembering that an action/proposal/opinion of 23 days ago opposes one now. Did you also realize back then what the consequences in face of an adverse outcome would be? That would be an extreme ability of foresight. And unfortunately it doesn't make a lick of difference.
Hmm. I'm not sure what you mean by reasonable here. I have to admit I'm rather worried that Trump is actually an outsider / non-politician, and that this will result in some rather awful power struggles for the foreseeable future as the government undergoes the bureaucratic equivalent of (hopefully) chemotherapy, or (more pessimistically) leprosy. "Reasonable" to me basically means an exceedingly boring and predictable government.
> Did you also realize back then what the consequences in face of an adverse outcome would be?
Not in detail but in character, yes. I did what I could to calm and reason with the mob. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12734428 for example.
My basic position was and is that shunning, as a tactic, is net negative. Or at least is net negative when done to sophisticated opponents. If the person's wrong, kicking them out will just cause them to continue being wrong only this time with different people and without you around to correct them. If the person's right, kicking them out will just keep you wrong only this time without anyone to help you find the truth.
> And unfortunately it doesn't make a lick of difference.
hah, agree. If commenting on HN isn't its own reward, it's a waste of time :p
It would be best if Trump would choose respectable Republicans as advisers. I hope they are offering their services and he considers them without malice.
All we can do at this moment is try to make the best of it. That means giving him a chance to do things right. If he doesn't, we'll see soon enough.
This is hope speaking, not rational prediction.
Cronyism "might be expected" from politicians. (In fact it's very expected from self-serving, hubristic politicians like Donald Trump.) That doesn't make cronyism OK.
To make this more concrete, in GGP Robert Gates is brought up as a respectable republican who Trump presumably would have appointed were he not engaged in cronyism. Google "Robert Gates Trump" then let me know if you really think cronyism is the best explanation for why Robert Gates didn't get the job.
We all know how easy it is for political promises to be broken - there are any number of ways to sabotage an effort you're in charge of, while appearing to act in good faith.
You don't even have to do it deliberately - you just need to give 100% in a job that needs you to give 110%.
Who do you think has more incentive to deliver your vision? A guy who hates you, and who thinks he'll get a better boss (maybe even be boss himself) if you're out of the way? Or a guy whose ship is tied to yours and if you go down, he'll never achieve such heights in his career again?
There's certainly value for passion about the mission, but it shouldn't be confused with desperation.
I find someone who's smart and also share my vision then.
That being said, please tell us which recent administration did not engage in the practice?
If Trump were a Silicon Valley CEO, we would be saying he's not hiring them due to a "cultural fit."
Hiring the best qualified people who wants to Make America Great Again is different from giving favors to unqualified foreigners who wants to screw over the American people.
Would you expand on this? There's so much going back and forth that I sometimes have a hard time knowing what people are referring to.
The phrase implies a moral basis. What is your moral basis for determining what is a threat to society?
Who is entitled to define what is a "threat to society"?
Throughout history there have been many immoral governmental oppressions justified by some ruler's own definition of "threat to society", which many of the ruled people at the time were convinced to believe.
I just used the word "immoral". As I said, this requires a basis. What is morality? Clearly it is not "what the majority of society believe in". The beliefs of society can and do change over time and circumstances. Does this mean that what is moral changes over time? If you say it does, I will say "then that is not morality".
The basis for morality cannot be your own beliefs. Nor can it be the beliefs of a majority of "society". The only true and reliable basis for morality must be the character of the one true, just, righteous and unchanging eternal God, he whose name is "I AM WHO I AM".
> just twenty-three days after your witch hunt,
The thought processes of all these allegedly enlightened people are strange. For all the claims of "rationality", I can barely find difference with the psychology of the most primitive tribesmen. Just a better grade of pretexts.
(The murderous rage of the "rationalists" in the French, Russian, Chinese, Cambodian, etc. revolutions, all conducted by very educated people, is well documented and quite sad.)
Regardless of whether one thinks boycotts are a reasonable way for people to express their view or unhelpful political pressure on other people's views, comparing them with mass murders conducted by revolutionaries is just unhinged.
Thanks for pointing that out.
That whole thread highlights to an extreme degree how broken politics is in the U.S.
WOW. This is insane! Things like this and Mozilla's CEO situation are exactly why Trump won the destitute and the rich alike.
Liberals shoving down their half-baked morals into everybody's throats. How condescending. So much for Egalitarianism. We are equal, just not with Trump voters. What a hypocrisy.
Mind you, never in the history of history have people fought against discrimination, corruption, and oppression by saying "but they might have a point too".
Uncle Tom's Cabin, the most effective anti-slavery propaganda of the 19th century, opened up with a scene of slaves living in favorable conditions and getting along well with their masters.
A Modest Enquiry Into the Nature of Witchcraft by John Hale is a book credited with ending the Salem Witch trials. In it he acknowledges testimony in the trials that could certainly lead one to believe witchcraft actually happened.
Stowe and Hale acknowledged truth in the opposing side in situations much more oppressive and discriminatory than Trump's border wall or immigration restrictions. People who want to effect change today should take note.
There are no "favorable conditions" to slavery. Slavery sought to find moral ground on the hypothesis that the master knew what was best for their slaves. Stowe repeatedly makes the point that even kind masters were prevented from freeing their slaves.
Hale supported the work of the courts until his second wife was accused of practicing witchcraft. Hah.
This is, in fact, why it's so difficult to fight these things. Interpretation has trumped over documentation, context "fades", lies are so much easier to propagate, refuting bullshit could be an actual 24/7 job. How could anybody keep up. Maybe we're doomed to having morons destroy a few tens of millions of people every 100 years.
The original fact being checked was:
> never in the history of history have people fought against discrimination, corruption, and oppression by saying "but they might have a point too"
1. No "favorable conditions" to slavery means Stowe never recognised advantages to slavery. Not only he does not, but he laments it despite those "favorable conditions".
2. Hale didn't excuse the courts; he actively supported their work. That is, until he decided he didn't want to. Later commentators on the trials mark this as the defining moment that helped turn public opinion against the prosecutions.
To sum up my point, read your history.
> Let me spell it out
> read your history
Seems pretty aggressive to me. If you are refuting these points, why not include all relevant information?
But in any case, the second point (that Hales work didn't end the witch trials) you only just make here, and the first you clarify.
Do you see what you're doing?
"Witches are bad, and since Trump supporters are witches, it's okay to kill them."
It's all accusations. There is no videos proof of Trump supporters going around lynching Black people like what the KKK did back in the old days.
You're doing a witch hunt where you accuse Trump supporters of being a witch, and then justifying that it's okay to kill them them because they're witches. Do you see how wrong that is? You don't even know them personally, so how would you even know that they're witches?
Not a very solid attempt at trolling, plus too long text, 2/10.
The Nazi accused the Jews of many many things. The Nazi tricked everyone to hate the Jews (with all sorts of accusations). Once people hated the Jews, the Nazi were able to kill off the Jews without any backlash, because in those people's mind, the Jews "deserved" it.
Liberals are doing the same thing to Trump supporters. Accuse Trump supporters of being racist (I don't see any Trump supporter going around lynching Black people), and making it okay to beat up Trump supporter because they "deserve" it.
This witch hunt has to stop. It's 2016 already, and I can't believe witch hunt (under the new name "Trump Supporters Are Racist And They Deserve To Get Beat Up") is still happening.
Trump's victory only shows I overestimated people. My morals may not have a majority, so it's great they aren't subject to a popularity contest. Democracy isn't about two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
Regarding "egalitarianism": People are created equal, they deserve equal chances, equal treatment before the law when the situations are equal. it doesn't mean all opinions deserve equal consideration. If I get cancer, I'll listen to an expert. If I read something on foreign policy, I'll give more weight to a Condi Rice interview in the NYT than something by "blahi". It's the result of a general policy called "Don't be an idiot".
And yes, I am, just now, calling these people idiots. Because their argument seems to be "I don't like how you're making fun of me, so I'm gonna find some bystanders and beat them up, because I know how much it hurts you to watch people suffer".
I'd also say this "condescension" has always been a two-way street. All the talk of "real America" has, since at least the Sarah Palin disaster, been a way to insult "the elites".
Whereas, "Got 'em by the balls" has passed fully into colloquial usage for some time now, it may be difficult for many to feel earnest moral outrage over this statement when the plaintiff's core platform includes social equality of the sexes. Rather, all your audience hears is the political Left reiterating a double standard that is stacked against whites, males, and particularly the intersection of the two categories.
The vast majority of both parties lives their entire life without bearing any hatred for any race or gender as a category of person.
Leftists are subject to the same basic human nature as Rightists, and this includes the tendencies to censor, bully, label, and dismiss those who disagree with us.
And speaking as a White Male, the idea that the deck is stacked against us, compared to the experiences of women and minorities, suggests either a deliberate blindness or an attempt to troll. It is simply one of the most jaw-dropping suggestions I've ever seen in a HN comment.
So you speak for the experience of all white males now? You know what it's like to grow up in Appalachia? Did you lose a factory job in Michigan? Did you have any experience coal mining in Pennsylvania until you couldn't? Have you farmed in the middle of Kansas? If not then don't try to speak for the people who have. This kind of rhetoric from the left is a very good reason why Trump is the President-Elect right now. If your side figures that out sometime in the next four years, you might have a chance next time.
But that doesn't mean the preceding comment was right to compare "grab them by the balls" to "grab them by the pussy". "Grab them by the balls" is an expression. "Grab them by the pussy" was a claim that Trump could do exactly that, to anyone he chose, by virtue of his celebrity. That claim was backed by a Cosby-esque assortment of women with sexual assault stories involving Trump.
Total misquote.
The actual was "They let you grab their pussy." Emphasis on the "THEY LET".
In other words, there was consent already.
In this case, the gp quote is accurate, though arguably cherry-picked or purposely misinterpreted.
Trump: And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.
Bush: Whatever you want.
Trump: Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.
I've trimmed the quote in the interest of space, while leaving enough to attempt to show the context. If you'd like to add more context, I have no problem with that. I chose the sources I did as they were the first that came up in the search results when looking for the full transcript.
- http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/donald-trump-tape-trans...
I should clarify: the deck is massively stacked against a great number of people. White males are massively represented in that number. However, for many situations women and minorities face additional discrimination which you are, for some reason, unwilling or unable to acknowledge.
Again you are reducing the experience of millions of people into your little clear-cut categories and trying to speak for them. Not only are you trying to speak for white males but you apparently also speak for women and minorities. Your side's identity politicking is fallacious to its core and cost you the election. But don't stop now, we have another election in 2 years.
Your position appears to be that nobody should speak for, or even attempt to understand, anyone who does not share their own particular experience. That is obviously fallacious and suggests trolling.
I'm not sure what clear-cut categories you are reading. Perhaps you could in your infinite wisdom educate us poor unenlightened seekers of wisdom as to the true state of world affairs?
>> And speaking as a White Male, the idea that the deck is stacked against us
You literally wrote the word "us" so, yes, you did speak for all white males or at least a significant enough fraction of them to make the distinguishment irrelevant.
> Your position appears to be that nobody should speak for, or even attempt to understand, anyone who does not share their own particular experience. That is obviously fallacious and suggests trolling.
You have no rational basis to define my life experience through your little lens using as specious a basis as group identity. Your argument is the fallacious one. You do not know the tiniest insignificant fraction of the people you are presuming to judge yet you pompously shoot your mouth off which is the height of hubris. If you think that is wrong or trolling then, again, you have learned nothing.
> Perhaps you could in your infinite wisdom educate us poor unenlightened seekers of wisdom as to the true state of world affairs?
You aren't seeking wisdom. You think you know everybody's experience already from the comfort of your computer. You don't. There's your enlightenment.
Simply put, I took issue with the statement "a double standard that is stacked against whites, males, and particularly the intersection of the two categories." I don't extend my personal experiences to all White Males, but the author of the comment clearly did. I said that my own experience did not back up his assertion that it affected all White Males. I fail to see why that commentator is allowed to make sweeping generalisations but I'm not allowed to exclude myself from that sweep through dint of personal experiences.
As long as you're not infringing on my rights, why should I care about the contents of your head?
No?
Then he's free to vote for whoever he wants.
http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&p=156...
Up to and including anything that anyone might consider to go under those labels?
> outright sexual assualt ("grab 'em by the pussy")
We should at least be careful of describing something that is not an instance of "outright sexual assault" as "outright sexual assault". "boasting of same" is not the same.
> stiffing contractors and suppliers
I assume Hillary is also out then, as that would be tolerating corruption?
The context does't lead me to believe anything about Trumps actual actions.
Personally I thought it was just a stupid rather vulgar boast when I first heard the line. Then we heard from victims... who's testimonials changed my opinion quite easily. It's one thing to be the sort of idiot that says such things... it's another thing entirely to do them.
Also since I'm not even an American I have no inherent bias towards either end of the stupidly partisan political spectrum that is D vs R in the US of A
Personally I think George Washington was completely correct in his characterisation of political parties in his farewell address. [1] (20 to 25 ) and why he hoped they would never be formed in America.
The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.
1 - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Washington%27s_Farewell_Addre...
Would you detest wiki-leaks because Assange is a rapist?
When one of the more alarming lawsuits (not just media chatter) has so many problems: http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/3/13501364/tr... I'm more than a little skeptical...
This is why we need courts, rule of law and what have you. And even then I'm not always convinced, what with the US's terrible habit of plea bargaining.
The problem is, most Trump supporters are not racist or sexist.
You're doing a witch hunt where you accuse someone of being a witch, and then justifying that it's okay to kill them them because they're witches. Do you see how wrong that is? You don't even know them personally, so how would you even know that they're witches?
Trump has said he will ban all Muslims entering the USA. That is discrimination on the grounds of religion.
He has repeatedly characterised Mexicans as rapists. That is racism.
He has repeatedly made disrespectful comments about women based on their appearance and questioned their ability to do their job based on whether they're on their Period. That is sexism.
He has boasted about being able to get away with uninhibited sexual contact because of his position of power and money. Women have corroborated his own claims and have stated that it was unwelcome. When both he and they are making consistent statements the balance of probability is that they're both telling the truth.
The idea that non-protest counts as consent is massively dangerous especially if one party has all the power and if the contact in question has already happened and finished.
Not really. It's only discrimination if Trump applies it to every Muslims. But Trump doesn't apply it to every Muslims.
Trump said he will temporary ban immigrants (they don't even have to be Muslim) from countries with direct ties to terrorism, until they can be properly vet. This is not discrimination against Muslims because Trump has no problem with Muslims who are U.S. citizens and Trump has no problem with Muslims who are from countries that are fighting against ISIS.
>He has repeatedly made disrespectful comments about women based on their appearance. That is sexism.
If you're talking about Miss Universe... It was not sexism.
Trump was preemptively defending Miss Universe from the incoming media. The media was going to have a field day with her when she shows up at the Miss Universe 60 pounds overweight. She didn't understand that the media was about to hang her out to dry. Trump knew what was going to happen, so he invited the media over, and called the reporters fat, and Trump even called himself fat, and tells everyone that being fat is normal, so that the reporters can not call her fat (because they will look like hypocrites). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpXsAoXZIMg
CNN then proceeded to call her fat anyway. http://archive.is/jHaEh
Afterward, she backs-tabbed him, even though they wanted to fire her and he saved her ass. https://i.sli.mg/8gzCQX.jpg
She is not a good person. She threaten to kill a judge, and involved in the gateway driving of a murder. http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2016/09/28/miss-univers...
>...questioned their ability to do their job based on whether they're on their Period.
This have no factual evidence. Not only that, he had done many things to help empowered women. For example, he was the first to let a woman be in charge of building a skyscraper building. That was unheard of during the 80's.
He also admit that a female worker with skills and abilities is worth more than 10 male workers.
>Women have corroborated his own claims and have stated that it was unwelcome.
No evidence. Trump either had never even met those people before, or they just want their 15 minute of fame, or were being paid by his opponents. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f8d_1478953280
>The idea that non-protest counts as consent is massively dangerous especially if one party has all the power and if the contact in question has already happened and finished.
Trump said they let him grab their pussy. Emphasis on the THEY LET part. That's consent.
All these are just election smears. The typical election smears that you see every election years, as rivals tries to make their opponents look as bad as possible.
None of these are even important, as the election result have shown. Voters are not stupid. They care more about jobs, security, and health issues than these smears.
Hillary was so focus on the smearing Trump that she forgot about what the voters actually cares about. And that's why she lost.
Regarding tolerance of people, that depends on how they're behaving. Society doesn't tolerate certain behaviours, and will imprison people for some of them, so arguing that you should always tolerate people is to separate people and their actions in a way that isn't always possible or appropriate.
Also, he said the women LET him do it. In other word, they CONSENT!
Typical guys bragging to each other.
That sounds a lot like the half-baked shoving you're trying to describe.
I wouldn't be so convinced the 50+ million people who voted Trump fit neatly in to those two categories.
> Thiel doesn't even get equity in YC. Thiel's participation in YC is almost literally just a marketing tactic --- it's a co-endorsement. We're telling Altman: rethink the endorsement. (this is actually copy-pasted again in another comment)
tptacek all but says those exact words. I don't know what other interpretation but YC removal/exclusion is implied.
Twenty-three days ago you and Marco sought to get Peter Thiel removed from YC for his support of Trump[1]. This is to say you were explicitly working to ensure that respectable people would distance themselves from Trump for fear of being ostracized.
Although Peter is still with YC, the broader campaign of social pressure you participated in worked. The respectable Republicans distanced themselves from Trump. As might be expected, Trump is now giving governmental positions to those who didn't distance themselves from him during the election. I don't find that surprising, nor do I find it surprising that those who stuck with Trump were the discredited outsiders (they were already ostracized).
Quite frankly the surprising part of this story is finding you, just twenty-three days after your witch hunt, lamenting that no one respectable is in Trump's inner circle. Isn't this the sort of outcome you were explicitly fighting for less than a month ago?
[1] See all 82 of your comments on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12733024