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Re:Private Porn Shoots by joshuaheard on Monday November 07, 2016 @11:14AM (#12892150)
tldr: the article asks why is porn legal and prostitution illegal when both are being paid for sex.

I never really thought about that distinction before. The author's answer makes sense. What it really shows is that prostitution should be legal.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by alicewales on Monday November 07, 2016 @11:28AM (#12892273)
I guess in the case of pornography, both participants are being paid by a third party (the producer) for taking part in the sex act. This is different from a typical prostitute/client relationship, where one is paying the other for sex.

(I don't know if this is addressed in the article - the site seems to have fallen over.)

Re:Private Porn Shoots by pavel_lishin on Monday November 07, 2016 @11:30AM (#12892299)
That's one of the criteria, yep.

Another one is legal forms required for producers and actors - there are forms that each actor must fill out, these must be verified and kept. Not doing so is a felony.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by irishcoffee on Monday November 07, 2016 @11:51AM (#12892501)
So, I can't believe I'm about to say this: this kind of presents a prostitution loophole, no?

As long as a 3rd party is involved, and "films" it (still, unmanned camera in the room) and everyone fills out the paperwork, and the 3rd party handles the payment (minimum wage for party A, minimum wage + $X for party B), party A "buys some porn" at the curious cost of minimum wage + $X.

Am I missing something? Did I explain this poorly?

Re:Private Porn Shoots by quirkafleeg on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:05PM (#12892633)
From the article:

    I get a handful of calls per year from guys who think 
    they're the first geniuses to come up with the great 
    idea of setting up a "Freeman Brothel" and calling it
    a "film studio."

    They're all disappointed when I tell them that they're 
    not getting away with this "brilliant plan" unless they 
    take so many steps to make it look legitimate that it 
    will, in fact, become a legitimate porn production 
    enterprise — in which case, why bother with the ruse in 
    the first place?
Re:Private Porn Shoots by AndrewKemendo on Monday November 07, 2016 @02:30PM (#12894139)
So, yes? The author incredulously assumes that "it's not worth it" in which case it actually might be worth it for someone and that is an avenue to do it.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by burkaman on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:04PM (#12892621)
Law is not code, prostitution as a concept is illegal. This is sort of like wondering if you could avoid income tax by just doing a bunch of favors for your really good friend, and then getting a totally unrelated Christmas present from them.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by pc86 on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:12PM (#12893351)
> Law is not code

Remembering this would put a stop to 90% of legal "discussions" on HN.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by Spivak on Monday November 07, 2016 @03:09PM (#12894554)
Except for when it is code. If you do something that is legal under the letter of the law or when the law is ambiguous you are supposed to be given the benefit of the doubt and granted leniency. If this wasn't the case then lawmakers would have no reason to write laws precisely.

It's the other situation where law stops being code. If you do something that is technically illegal but probably oughtn't be then the law can be reinterpreted in your favor.

Assuming you followed the absolute letter of the law with your totally-not-a-brothel then you would be fine (until the law is amended).

Re:Private Porn Shoots by burkaman on Monday November 07, 2016 @03:37PM (#12894802)
My point is that laws are often intentionally not written precisely, because it's impossible to enumerate every type of violation in advance. Looking at my own state's prostitution law, you would need to define the following things to get a precise law:

"money or its equivalent"

"offers"

"adultery"

"fornication"

etc.

The law is written in terms of broad concepts that a judge can interpret. In most cases there is no such thing as "absolute letter of the law", partly because English makes that impossible, but mostly because legislating such strict specific definitions would be a bad idea. I think the impossibility of bug-free software makes it clear that we wouldn't want laws written like code.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by pavel_lishin on Monday November 07, 2016 @03:47PM (#12894895)
Many states do define those very precisely.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by paulddraper on Monday November 07, 2016 @03:26PM (#12894703)
Laws aren't code because they are written in English (or other similarly ambiguous languages).

Select parts of laws may have the rigor of a programming language, but the greater portion expresses things for humans, with human ambiguity.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by mcphage on Monday November 07, 2016 @02:53PM (#12894387)
It's disappointing how many people here imagine that an incredibly transparent ruse will get them out of legal difficulties no problem. It's like they can't conceive that yes, other people have thought of it before, and yes, it's transparently obvious, and no, you can't get away with a crime with a "gotcha!".
Re:Private Porn Shoots by pc86 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @09:37AM (#12900532)
It's because of things like the following scenario, which as a 17 year old with a lead foot, I was "lucky" enough to have happen to me.

A police trooper pulled me over for ~80 in a 65 (deserted highway at night). He somehow transposed the last two numbers in my license plate, so I obviously assumed I was home free. Until, while I was on the stand, the judge just looked at me for about 10 seconds, said "Were you driving the car?" "[pause] Yes, your honor." "[gavel slam] Guilty."

Re:Private Porn Shoots by SomeStupidPoint on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:23PM (#12893453)
Don't rich people basically do exactly that to pay fewer taxes than they're supposed to because favors and gifts aren't taxed like income?

I'm not sure your example was the best for showing there aren't loopholes based on overly literal interpretations, given that the tax code is notorious for them.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by burkaman on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:37PM (#12893591)
Ok yeah taxes were probably a bad example. I guess the tax code a lot closer to code that you follow literally than most of the legal system.

I hope the point was clear though, that the "spirit of the law" is a real thing, and most clever loopholes will not work with a human judge.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by bfstein on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:26PM (#12892840)
FWIW, this is taxable by law. Gifts above a certain amount (I believe $10k) are taxed as normal income.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by akurtzhs on Monday November 07, 2016 @02:25PM (#12894092)
At least in the US, this is incorrect.

There is a gift tax, but it's paid by the donor, and they can give up to the annual exclusion amount a year without hitting it. This year, the limit's $14,000.

Once a gift goes past that for the year, the excess starts counting against the donor's lifetime exclusion and needs to be reported on the donor's taxes. Gift taxes come into play once the lifetime exclusion limit is exceeded, and it's $5.4 million.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by cbr on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:08PM (#12893298)
It's also not a gift if it's compensation for doing work.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by _audakel on Monday November 07, 2016 @04:24PM (#12895282)
but then doesn't the reciever have to pay taxes?
Re:Private Porn Shoots by jessaustin on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:27PM (#12892851)
A friend who claims to have watched a fair amount of free online porn suspects that many of the "POV" sites are basically just fat ugly trust-fund dudes paying for intercourse with attractive young women, in those particular locales in which lots of attractive young women are interested in "getting started in porn". (SoCal, Miami, Eastern Europe, etc.) The "producer" and "camera operator" and "actor" seem all to be the same person.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by pavel_lishin on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:32PM (#12892906)
I've watched some of the porn that's like what you describe, and yeah, it seems to be the same camera guy every time - and nobody else but the girl - but I think the key distinction is that they market themselves, they do sell the videos, and they are actually producing porn that a lot of people end up watching.

One of the things the article points out is that if you're going to "exploit the loophole", it's going to take about as much work as actually running a production company. This seems to be the case here.

(And, presumably the guys in question are also keeping records of the actresses, filling out all the paperwork, etc. No fun going to prison for fucking a 17 year old on camera.)

Re:Private Porn Shoots by AndrewKemendo on Monday November 07, 2016 @02:33PM (#12894180)
Oh man, maybe that's why there is so much free porn out there!
Re:Private Porn Shoots by pdpi on Monday November 07, 2016 @11:57AM (#12892555)
"A" buying for minimum wage + $X won't pass the smell test. Judges aren't automatons blindly following a set of rules, they're (usually, pretty clever) human beings with both the capacity and the authority to use their best judgement in interpreting the law.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by ge0rg on Monday November 07, 2016 @11:54AM (#12892533)
I suppose most customers will be strongly opposed to being filmed, for fear of blackmail or leakage.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by schoen on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:16PM (#12892752)
The linked article is primarily about this scenario.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by bashinator on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:12PM (#12893350)
That might once have been true, but these days most of the public own a pocket-sized video production and distribution studio.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by Avshalom on Monday November 07, 2016 @11:59AM (#12892573)
The article isn't about why is one legal and the other not so much as how the law distinguishes between the two cases.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by davesque on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:41PM (#12893617)
Just for the sake of debate, maybe there's an argument against prostitution since, presumably, it would take place on a much larger scale? This could lead to things like faster spread of STDs?
Re:Private Porn Shoots by cheiVia0 on Monday November 07, 2016 @04:52PM (#12895532)
But the government can also mandate frequent STD tests and safety reqirements. AFAIR Netherlands, where prostitution is legal, has the lowest STD rates.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by finid on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:01PM (#12892593)
What it really shows is that prostitution should be legal.

That's not going to happen easily. And that's partly because it will take away an avenue for filling up prisons. And undercover cops doing the prostitution beat are not going to like it.

But I'm sure if politicians see a tax benefit from legalizing it, they will show some interest.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by BurningFrog on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:07PM (#12892653)
The undercover cop lobby is not actually that powerful.

Prostitution is kept illegal mostly because that's what the majority of voters strongly prefer.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by thephyber on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:14PM (#12892736)
I would argue it's more a case of concentrated benefits and diffuse costs.

I doubt most people strongly want to outlaw adult, consenting prostitution. But the religious (socially conservative, etc) lobby is loud and participates when the law is challenged. The majority if people don't, so they tend to get what the anti-protitution lobby wants.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by BurningFrog on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:35PM (#12892938)
Checking the facts, we're both a bit off. From https://today.yougov.com/news/2015/09/01/country-split-legal... :

"44% of Americans think that prostitution should be legal while 46% think that it should be illegal. Democrats tend to support rather than oppose legalization (50% to 40%) while most Republicans oppose rather than support legalization (54% to 34%). Independents are evenly split, 45% to 45%."

As I expected, men are more pro legalization (59%) than women (30%).

I think you underestimate the left's anti prostitution fervor. Their stated arguments are around exploitation and trafficking.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by thephyber on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:57PM (#12893176)
Numbers are great! I did overestimate support for my opinion (I live in the Silicon Valley bubble), but the poll numbers show there would not be enough affirmative votes to outlaw prostitution if it were voted on today and were not already the default.

I think polls usually undervalue how motivated people are to act politically on their stance. In the presidential race, this is related to how "energized" people are to go to the voting booth.

Either way, I think Americans have tended to outlaw borderline issues, but I suspect in the coming 1-2 decades, there will be a significant pushback against over-criminialization of non-violent crimes. There is a book called "Three Felonies a Day" which explains how ridiculous our laws have already become.

Re:Private Porn Shoots by tropo on Monday November 07, 2016 @03:34PM (#12894773)
And there you go, 59% to 30%, showing who fears a loss of power if a scarce service suddenly becomes less scare, dropping in value. With greater availability of alternatives, power relationships change.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by ska on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:03PM (#12892617)
Are prostitution related convictions actually representing a significant fraction of prison population? That would surprise me, at least.
Re:Private Porn Shoots by thephyber on Monday November 07, 2016 @12:10PM (#12892686)
The site won't load, but...

In the USA, porn has been largely protected under the 1st Amendment. It is important to note that some pornography is not legal. This is usually called "obscene" and the standards are judged by your local community. There was a famous SCOtUS decision whereby the opinion used the test of "I know it when I see it"[1] to judge the threshold between legal porn and illegal porn, which I find problematic to the point of not being a useful law. You are at the whims of the delicate sensibilities of your neighbors on a jury when you are accused of consuming illegal porn.

Side note: there is a great scene in a movie on the Muhammed Ali SCOTUS case where the justices spend one day a week reviewing "evidence" of another ongoing case involving porn. [2]

Prostitution is usually prohibited because American protestantism (typically in the form of social pressure or local laws) is largely prudish. This is the same social pressure that brought about the alcohol prohibition (with the dubious distinction of being the only Amendment to have been repealed). It is hyperbolized in the movie Footloose in the form of drinking (which leads to unplanned non marital sex, of course!) and dancing (the horror!).

Prostitution, specifically, is usually outlawed because of the effects on public health (both medical health and the mental/social health of men who use prostitutes), and fear of the unknown (violence and other associated crime). Many communities in the US already legalize some forms of sex work (phone sex, video and still camera pornography, bikini waitresses, strip clubs, etc) or perhaps better worded, can not outlaw them. NIMBYs are largely to credit for the threshold of where a community draws a line on local sex work.

Nevada brothels are still legal in many of the less populated counties, but the legal brothels are regulated, the girls must register with the sheriff's office, and they are all tested for medical issues frequently.

The US has had a long history with using the law to outlaw "socially undesirable" behaviors (put another way, the prevailing social cohort is able to control other unapproved cohorts with the law, creating something of a tyrant of the majority). I firmly believe that marijuana is much less dangerous than many other, more acceptable drugs which have been legalized (like alcohol and tobacco). Even legal gambling is a much larger risk to public health than marijuana. But marijuana (which I don't use) prohibition has, in the past, been a convenient tool to outlaw to control non-white populations in the US and to prevent a drop in the insane work ethic protestants require of their community, similar to how the alcohol prohibition was sold to other WASPs by controlling those "unruly" Southern Europeans during a generation when the US was becoming increasingly fearful of its changing demographics.

Like many other prohibitions, prostitution is hard to police and the side effects of the prohibition are probably worse than if the action were legalized. Modern prostitution is a fund-raising tool for drug cartels, people smugglers, and has contributed to a rise in modern slavery.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

[2] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2061756/

Re:Private Porn Shoots by joshuaheard on Monday November 07, 2016 @04:31PM (#12895338)
All true. I actually took a class in Prostitution in college (no, there was no homework!). The main theme was the double standard for women. For instance, most prostitution laws are enforced against the prostitute, but not the "john". Also, historically, women were considered a man's property, but they could not sell themselves. It also studied legal prostitution in the Netherlands. There, the prostitutes are taxed, regulated, and protected. There is less disease, violence, and exploitation. Seems better all around to legalize it in my opinion.