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Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by desdiv on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @12:15AM (#12852206)
I did a double-take when I saw Twitter posting[0] in the Who's Hiring thread.

What's the rationale here? Why are they firing and hiring at the same time?

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12851502

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by flukus on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @12:26AM (#12852248)
> Why are they firing and hiring at the same time?

Because downsizing via attrition is a death sentence. The worst people are the most likely to stay and then new hires will be unlikely to stick around and deal with the code from the worst people.

Once the spiral starts it's hard to get out of.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by _Codemonkeyism on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @01:07AM (#12852388)
I always found if funny companies touting "We're hiring only the best" and then "We firing the worst".
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by jknoepfler on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @01:22AM (#12852455)
Companies can self-consistently seek to hire the best and fire the worst from the the hired-pool.

1. Hiring is a noisy process. You can tune your hiring test to lean more towards false negatives or more towards false positives, but you cannot (at this juncture in history) eliminate a large amount of bias (error) from evaluations of candidates.

2. Regression to the mean ensures that any hiring process that sets a "high bar" will result in pool of developers who are on average below that bar.

3. as an employee remains at a company, the bias in your evaluation process should decrease dramatically. One can, and probably should try to weed out false positives, especially if one is trying to reduce payroll.

Companies can self-consistently seek to hire the best and fire the worst from the the hired-pool.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by intoverflow2 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @07:03AM (#12853568)
Knew the HN SV crowd would find a way to spin this as "This is good for <company>"
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by kefka on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @08:33AM (#12854000)
Its not a spin. Its the actual business process and thought behind it.

The solution to that is challenge it with clout equal to the business. And that means unions. Only when 2 powers butt heads, will there be any fairness out of that.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by jknoepfler on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @01:19PM (#12857122)
> Its the actual business process and thought behind it.

Exactly. Even if one disagrees with a thought process (actually, especially if one disagrees with a thought process), one should still seek to understand it inasmuch as possible. Otherwise one is doomed to repeat it.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by jknoepfler on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @12:57PM (#12856862)
For the record, I am neither employed in or near Silicon Valley (not that it should matter), nor do I have any strong beliefs about whether or not actively weeding out developers is a good tactic for a business (five years ago I would have said it wasn't, now I'm agnostic).

Whatever my beliefs or situation though, it's not hard for anyone to understand how a medium-to-large scale organization with a high hiring bar could make a rational decision to "hire the best" while still making an effort to release the least valuable developers in the company.

An alternative strategy is Google's. Google tunes their hiring process to produce almost exclusively false negatives rather than false positives (they very deliberately reject qualified candidates far more often than they hire under-qualified candidates). With this hiring strategy in place, it wouldn't make as much sense for Google to "weed out" developers.

And for the record I think 20th-century impersonal, statistical business thinking is toxic, but that doesn't mean I don't see its use or that I know of a better way to do things.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by abraae on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @08:52PM (#12860742)
If I had a dollar for every time someone said "why don't we hire like Google does"?

Answer: Google can do what they do because of their scale, culture, systems, access to pots of money etc.

Google are Google. The rest of us are not and can't calibrate our hiring process to turn up only false negatives. We'd never hire anyone.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by jknoepfler on Thursday November 03, 2016 @01:30AM (#12861814)
I agree, it's not a feasible strategy for most companies. It's not even that innovative, it's just repeating a test with a high error rate repeatedly. This doesn't reduce error, but it does change the type of errors they make. I think that's pretty interesting. (From speaking with co-workers, it also damages Google's image considerably and reduces the probability that people will spend time and energy applying there; the their applicant pool seems large enough anyway).
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by mc32 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @01:25AM (#12852472)
It is really funny in a way and necessary in another.

Funny because companies necessarily say they aspire to have a representative workforce, one which reflects the community (local/national workforce, users, the founders?) but then when it comes down to it, they only want to keep the ones who will provide some value (which is obvious) but then remember the community is made up of all kinds of people with different abilities --so we realize we are all in it for ourselves --there is no "community" where we look after each other. It's me or them, really.

It's necessary because, well, we live in a competitive world where your competitor isn't going to say, well, let's take it easy on them, they are keeping on a bunch of underachievers, and keeping underachivers employed is good for community, so we should give them a break.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by dmichulke on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @01:49AM (#12852579)
'Best' here refers to the population of job seekers, 'worst' refers to the population of the employees.

There are still some elements in the 'best of all job seekers' (= employees) who qualify as worse than the rest. You don't even need to change the trait(s) 'best' and 'worst' refer to.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by orange_county on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @02:17AM (#12852671)
I believe the hiring is a facade. They have been sending out hackerrank tests to every new grad but never planning to follow up. As a matter of fact, they stated that they will "follow up" in December. Any serious company in the Bay Area wouldn't be this slow with hiring if they were not in trouble.
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by rconti on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @07:46AM (#12853750)
I don't disagree with your conclusion about Twitter specifically, but it always blows my mind how slow tech companies are to deal with candidates in a hot job market.
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by huac on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @09:31AM (#12854444)
It's just Twitter. The new grad hiring at pretty much everywhere else is full throttle (or more accurately, pretty much done now).
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by tzs on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @02:50AM (#12852775)
According to the link given by Keverw most of the fired employees were in marketing and sales. The "Who's Hiring" post is asking for software engineers to work on server infrastructure.
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by user5994461 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @08:18AM (#12853915)
That's a tough position to recruit for currently. Let's all be positive and suppose that they always had real vacancies in there :D
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by kokon on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @01:21AM (#12852445)
Because having a mass layoff is an easy way to reduce non productive people. Otherwise you have to go through a complicated process for each individual, with a higher risk to be sued.
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by Kurtz79 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @07:01AM (#12853556)
That's maybe the theory, maybe.

In practice, in my personal experience, mass layoffs are a nightmare for everybody, and end up affecting also those not directly involved (especially since in most cases they don't know if they are until the layoffs are done).

So:

- Many of the "productive" people will leave on their own accord for better pastures, even before the layoffs are carried out.

- The rest will find themselves with an increased workload (and the nagging feeling they should have followed the lead of the previous group).

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by gorbachev on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @09:55AM (#12854690)
Mass layoffs in companies that answer to shareholders/investors is almost always a way to reduce costs and to increase ROI on investment.

It has absolutely nothing to do with productivity of the people getting laid off, it's more to do with a failure of some kind in management.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by walshemj on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @07:18AM (#12853628)
How come in a right to work regimen like the states how is it hard? you can just say "we have decided to cut back marketing head count by 20%"
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by amyjess on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @09:49AM (#12854630)
Right-to-work states still distinguish between firing for cause and a layoff for unemployment purposes. If you just get rid of somebody because you don't like them or whatever, that's legally considered a layoff because they did nothing wrong and thus can still collect unemployment.

If you let somebody go just because you didn't like them but you lied and said it was for performance reasons, they'll have to fight to get unemployment, and they may very well sue you for their troubles. On a similar note, if you do want to fire someone for performance reasons, you better have that lack of performance well documented.

Because of this, a lot of companies don't bother claiming cause: they classify all firings as layoffs and don't contest anyone's unemployment. I worked for a company like that once.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by CapitalistCartr on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @08:37AM (#12854033)
Exactly. That's a layoff, not firing.
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by analog31 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @09:36AM (#12854491)
There are some nuances to the terminology. Companies avoid the term "layoff" because it implies that people might be re-hired once the slowdown is over. Growing up near Detroit, I remember layoffs where the status of the laid off workers was specified in the union contract. I have not heard of this kind of layoff in recent times, outside of unionized companies.

Laypeople like me usually reserve "firing" for people who are fired "with cause." When companies fire people "at will," they often use words like "reduction in force."

Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is the consequences of being fired. If you are fired "at will," then you are entitled to things like unemployment compensation, COBRA benefits, etc. If you are fired "with cause," then you lose those benefits.

If an employee is a klunker, they will often wait for business to slow down, fire them "at will," and pay the benefits, to avoid potentially getting sued for false termination.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by krrishd on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @12:22AM (#12852236)
I might be wrong but it makes sense to spend more hiring dollars where they'll increase the bottom line (which is why they're still hiring) while reducing spending in places that are negatively contributing?
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by marcosdumay on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @09:19AM (#12854351)
Yet, you can just get your current employees on a room, and tell them to stop doing those actions that won't increase the bottom line, and start doing those ones that do.

Obviously, people have different talents, and can't do equally well any task you ask them. But I really doubt Twitter even tried. No company tries. More likely they froze their employees tasks beforehand so they could be better evaluated.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by ewjordan on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @03:12AM (#12852831)
Firing gets rid of the worst. Hiring, at least in theory, pulls in the best.

Healthy companies at scale and size equilibrium should be doing both at roughly the same rate, averaged over time.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by rootlocus on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @04:33AM (#12853048)

  > Hiring, at least in theory, pulls in the best.
If you're firing "the worst", that means at some point, you hired them. Not to mention "the best" is a very vague term. How do you quantify quality? What pool of people are you selecting "the best" from? How many of them are "the best"? The first two? The first ten?
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by pvaldes on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @06:22PM (#12859939)
> If you're firing "the worst", that means at some point, you hired them

... or that working in your company causes a serious damage and suck out all the talent of the people before to let it go totally burnt.

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by hga on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @06:38AM (#12853466)
Firing gets rid of the worst at playing the internal political game.

Fixed it for you.

Something I've seen at at least a couple of companies where it resulted in killing the company, and one of those was the storied Lucent (forced to sell out to Alcatel, which itself didn't fare well, evidently most of it was sold to Nokia in January this year).

The managers even made a point of telling us how their firing a particular key guy showed no one was safe. Well, the same was true of the project, which was de jure and de facto necessary for Lucent's continued existence as an independent entity, it was a media gateway, which along with a media gateway controller such as their very well received Softswitch replaces a unitary switch like their 5ESS.

(It was a very interesting project, BTW, we were working with 5ESS types in Cincinnati, and like that storied system it was a true 5 9's system, no faking it for scheduled maintenance, people expect their telecom systems to be available 24x7 absent acts of God.)

Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by chipperyman573 on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @01:05AM (#12852382)
I doubt people being fired from Vine are prevented from applying to Twitter, this just gives them an eas/y/ier way to vet the good ones.
Re:Ask HN: Who is firing? by dredmorbius on Wednesday November 02, 2016 @12:34AM (#12852266)
"Pivot"