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Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by illuminati1911 on Monday October 31, 2016 @04:30AM (#12835028)
Some people seem to think that the MacBook is only for developers and Apple is obliged to listen to only their feedback. News flash: world doesn't revolve around hacker news.

Let's be honest for a moment. Apple has never in the history been the one to wait for market to adapt to some new technology. They have been the one who immediately puts it on their products and gets rid of the old standards. Everybody has known this for years so this really shouldn't surprise anyone.

Generally speaking whether you like it or not, no one really cares if the ESC button is on the touchbar instead of being traditional physical button. Even fewer people care if there are ridiculous 32GB models available when most devs dont even need 16GB. Not to mention average consumers.

If Apple would give you guys 32GB option then people would cry why they can't get 64GB option. If the new MacBook wouldn't have touchbar then people would complain why Apple isn't innovating anymore etc.

What Apple is doing with their new MacBook is what Apple has been doing with their products for decades. If you don't like it feel free to switch to other laptops and run Win10 or Linux. But we all know you won't. You'll buy this MacBook sooner or later, then in 2018 when Apple releases new models you'll be here complaining about something again and you'll still buy that one as well.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by onion2k on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:03AM (#12835164)
Apple have locked developers in to the Apple ecosystem if they want to write apps for Apple devices. You can't build an app for iOS or OSX on a Windows or a Linux machine. If there's a large exodus of developers away from Apple devices then there'll be a resulting drop in the number of apps available in their app stores. That would ultimately damage Apple's appeal to other users.

You're absolutely right that Macbooks aren't specifically for developers, but releasing a laptop that developers generally don't feel is appealing to them could be really damaging to Apple's ecosystem.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by kayoone on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:32AM (#12835316)
> You can't build an app for iOS or OSX on a Windows or a Linux machine

Well actually you can, when using something like Xamarin which has worked pretty well for our company. Sure, somewhere you need a Mac build machine, but that can be an older generation mac mini or similar. The development can be done on Windows using Visual Studio and C# which overall is a pretty great experience with the added benefit of sharing a large percentage of the codebase with the native android version of your app.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by mhomde on Monday October 31, 2016 @07:18AM (#12835782)
Wouldn't it be ironic of most of the Apple developers ended up developing iOS apps in Windows on PC Computers :) Meanwhile in the Windows Store...
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by pjmlp on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:58AM (#12835455)
I don't remember being able to write for the Commodore while on my Timex, nor for the Amiga while on the PC, or for UNIX while on the PC....

Even UNIX developers are locked to their OSes APIs, unless they constrain themselves to command line POSIX tools.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by loloferrari on Monday October 31, 2016 @08:51AM (#12836240)
"Apple have locked developers in to the Apple ecosystem if they want to write apps for Apple devices."

IF.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by anfogoat on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:07AM (#12835189)
> You can't build an app for iOS or OSX on a Windows or a Linux machine. If there's a large exodus of developers away from Apple devices then there'll be a resulting drop in the number of apps available in their app stores.

I wonder. I've been running OSX in a KVM guest and it's been surprisingly trouble free and smooth via ARD (remote desktop).

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by thrill on Monday October 31, 2016 @11:04AM (#12837376)
It's been about two years since I asked the question, but Apple refused to license the use of OSX under a VM when the enterprise I worked for needed to setup a number of systems for offshore developers to work with.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by anfogoat on Monday October 31, 2016 @11:18AM (#12837508)
This is still the case as far as I know. This is not a viable option for a business entity. Probably not even for an individual depending on what you do with it and how ok you are with breaking the EULA.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by karmajunkie on Monday October 31, 2016 @08:44AM (#12836191)
What's the host machine? I was under the impression that OSX would only run on apple hardware in a vm – is that no longer the case?
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by anfogoat on Monday October 31, 2016 @11:07AM (#12837392)
The host is a white box Haswell system so this is not Apple hardware. Sierra _can_ be virtualized on non-Apple PC but you'll need to use a bootloader that supports it and build a customized .iso[1] from the install medium downloaded from AppStore. I believe the same goes for Yosemite and El Capitan.

So no, it is no longer the case. It is still prohibited by the EULA though.

[1] https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM/blob/master/create_install...

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by idlewords on Monday October 31, 2016 @04:46AM (#12835076)
My dreams are simple. I want to be able to put movies and TV shows on a thumb drive, and put that in a TV and play it.

I want to not have to buy a new computer because I tripped over a power cable.

I want to be able to type for more than a few minutes without my hands hurting.

I believe I share these dreams with a lot of people who aren't developers.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by baddox on Monday October 31, 2016 @04:56AM (#12835126)
It sounds like a very cheap laptop would work great for those requirements. Perhaps a used older generation MacBook Air or MacBook Pro.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by idlewords on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:00AM (#12835148)
Yeah, and depending on how the keyboard feels on this new beast, I might just stick with the old MBP.

But the thing is, it would be really cool to enjoy the technical improvements without giving up the basics. I played with a MacBook a few weeks ago, and the picture and built-in speakers were sensational. It was an amazing piece of engineering. And I had to return it because in their obsession with thinness, Apple had made it impossible for my gorilla hands to type on.

It would be nice to get a work laptop that had those strict improvements in it too, without having to sacrifice so much usability. That used to be the MBP upgrade experience. Once in a while you had to mourn something useful—the loss of an ethernet jack, for example. But mostly you got a lighter, faster machine with a better screen and battery life.

This upgrade is far more drastic and the first time the trade-off doesn't seem worthwhile. It's like design puritans took over the company.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by mal808 on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:29AM (#12835301)
You should check out the dell percision series.

http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m5510-workstatio...

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by aikah on Monday October 31, 2016 @04:50AM (#12835096)
> Some people seem to think that the MacBook is only for developers and Apple is obliged to listen to only their feedback

Sure, and developers should stop buying a brand that don't care about them too. That way everybody is happy. Apple can sell luxury goods and developers can shop elsewhere. Nothing of value will be lost.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by t27 on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:33AM (#12835327)
> Nothing of value will be lost.

Except for loss in revenue for Apple. Most tech companies right now prefer to buy Macs for devs because of the costs[1] and devs like it because of the versatility. If devs wont prefer Macs, it seems unlikely that the companies will also keep buying them in bulk

[1] - http://www.businessinsider.in/Macs-cost-one-third-as-much-as...

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by exergy on Monday October 31, 2016 @04:51AM (#12835102)
To me, the touch bar is the lesser of the two sins that Apple committed with these pro models.

So many of your 'typical' mac users need a proper keyboard. People writing long articles or novels, developers, obviously, even people working on writing reports or theses they all need a good keyboard. Typing is fundamental, and key travel makes a huge difference in the feel of it. Every review I've read of the single-port macbook suggests that while you can get sort of used to it, it's never as good as the older macbooks.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by rahkiin on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:06AM (#12835185)
The key travel in the new MBP is larger than in the singleport MB, as per presentation.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by pritambaral on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:50AM (#12835415)
By how much though? Knowing Apple, it might be larger by only 0.1mm. That wouldn't afford any noticeable benefit though.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by piva00 on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:42AM (#12835378)
People writing long articles or novels don't run a MBP, they used the Air or now the normal MacBook, you don't need a Pro machine for that.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by Veen on Monday October 31, 2016 @08:13AM (#12836021)
I'm a writer. I write around about 2000 words a day, and I'll be getting the new MacBook Pro for a few reasons:

- The screen is better than the Air. That matters when you're staring at it for 8 hours a day.

- However over-priced the MacBook Pro is, that goes double for the small MacBook. It's just too expensive for what you get.

- I want to be able to run photoshop and have it deal with the RAW files from my Sony A6000, My current machine — a 2012 MBA — can't manage it without becoming a noisy radiator.

- If I'm paying top dollar for a laptop, I want it to last for at least four years, and I don't see the small MacBook satisfying me for that length of time with its current resource limitations.

- The extra screen real estate might not seem like much, but when I want my work and a browser next to each other, it makes a difference.

Unusually for writers, I use Vim, and the lack of a hardware Escape is a small concern, but I've remapped it anyway, so I don't think it will pose much of a problem.

The keyboard also worries me, but I've played with the smaller MacBook and It's OK, not awesome but I can deal with it.

Edit: Of course, I could just buy a Windows laptop, but I haven't used Windows regularly for about fifteen years. I used Linux for about a decade, and then OS X. I won't move to Windows, and I'm too busy for the sort of fiddling Linux generally requires. Plus, I'm not a of fan of any current Linux UI — none have the polish of MacOS. So, in addition to everything else, MacOS is a big factor in my sticking with Apple.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by kirbyfan64sos on Tuesday November 01, 2016 @01:23PM (#12848035)
As a side note, if you really dislike the current Linux UIs, you may like Elementary OS (https://elementary.io/). It's UI took a lot of design cues from Mac OS and Chrome OS.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by idlewords on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:55AM (#12835442)
People who work on pro machines do a lot of writing. I'm ready to bet that everyone in this thread does a lot of writing.

Note that the keyboard on the MacBook is even worse than the one on the new MBP.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by piva00 on Monday October 31, 2016 @06:19AM (#12835544)
I'm not disputing that, I just stated that writers/novelists don't use a MBP, I'm not defending Apple on this, just stating a fact.

And it's a sad state of affairs in HN when I get downvoted for that, felt like I'm on Reddit now.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by idlewords on Monday October 31, 2016 @07:52AM (#12835923)
I am a writer, and I am having this argument with you in writing on a MacBook Pro.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by piva00 on Monday October 31, 2016 @08:25AM (#12836079)
But do you need the hardware of the MBP for that or was it a personal choice?

If we are free to use anecdotes I will base my evaluation on two friends who are copywriters and another one who's a tech writer. All of them using an Air or a normal MacBook for the work they do.

I'm curious on what your usage is as a writer for paying a premium on the Pro, care to elaborate?

P.S.: English is not my native language and I'm really trying to not sound condescending, I'm genuinely curious.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by idlewords on Monday October 31, 2016 @08:45AM (#12836198)
I happen to be a developer as well, so I want a machine I can travel with that's powerful enough to get everything done when I'm remote, and can drive a big external monitor when I'm home.

But for people who are writers and nothing else, I think the retina display was a big draw when the machine first came out.

The point I was trying to make above is that people who code, or use a pro laptop for editing or whatnot, still have to do a lot of writing as part of their job. So the keyboard on these machines matters a lot. And pro-users tend to be on their laptops all the time, which makes the ergonomic issues more important.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by piva00 on Tuesday November 01, 2016 @06:07AM (#12844479)
So this was quite misleading, as a developer myself I completely understand why you'd want a MBP but I was explicitly referring to writing-only work...
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by pritambaral on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:49AM (#12835411)
> or now the normal MacBook

Which also has the same Butterfly keyboard, or rather the previous version of it; and according to Apple, a less "better" version of it.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by alanfranzoni on Monday October 31, 2016 @04:43AM (#12835064)
At the same time, developers are often power users that are willing to shed a good amount of money for a decent laptop, and will recommend Macs to friends and famility. It was around 2009-2012 that about 50% of laptops at most developer conferences were Macbook/Macbook pros; I've seen the (perceived) percentage declining since.

Do you really think the "average user" would spend $1500-2500 for a laptop? The Macbook Pro is for Pro users. Let them work as pros.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by visarga on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:20AM (#12835247)
> Some people seem to think that the MacBook is only for developers and Apple is obliged to listen to only their feedback. News flash: world doesn't revolve around hacker news.

News flash. Developers are the ones that make a platform worth investing into. Where there's a thriving community of devs, there are interesting useful apps, new ideas, investments and research.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by pjmlp on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:59AM (#12835462)
I am a developer and really liked the new MBP.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by akhatri_aus on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:52AM (#12835427)
Not all of us developers are complaining.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by std_throwaway on Monday October 31, 2016 @06:13AM (#12835519)
> Some people seem to think that the MacBook is only for developers and Apple is obliged to listen to only their feedback. News flash: world doesn't revolve around hacker news.

The problem is not that Apple makes hardware for non-developers (for which it may actually be a great fit and value).

The problem is that Apple stopped making hardware for developers. A group of users which were quite happy with the previous offerings of Apple. There even was a time when the MacBooks were the best value a developer could get for reasonable money. Quite a few key users will make the switch to Windows&Linux based Laptops because Apple does not deliver anymore (not even at a high price point).

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by qwerta on Monday October 31, 2016 @04:45AM (#12835071)
But world does revolve around developers. We are reason why companies like Apple are successful.

And if even cheap Chromebook provides better experience, than it is time to move on. MacBook Pro today actually has some competition, Dell XPS is very nice machine.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by mrzool on Monday October 31, 2016 @04:44AM (#12835067)
In fact, the only thing I don't like about this utterly brilliant piece is that it revolves only around developers. It would have been a much stronger statement if only :%s/developers/professionals.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by idlewords on Monday October 31, 2016 @04:49AM (#12835090)
You're right—point taken!
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by nicky0 on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:06AM (#12835183)
How would you define 'professionals' in this context? Professonal what?

It seems the definition is "anyone for whom this product is unsuitable", as in "well this laptop may be OK for [x] but for a real professional like me it is a joke".

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by mrzool on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:19AM (#12835238)
Well, the categories which the MBP is supposedly targeted to: graphic/web designers, photographers, musicians, artists, filmmakers and makers of any kind. Of course that includes developers.

Seems to me that the new features appeal more to the casual user who uses its laptop for leisure (your [x]) than the professional.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by angry_octet on Monday October 31, 2016 @06:19AM (#12835545)
Musicians need ports, and already have gear to lug around; they don't need more dongles. A single standard usb 3 port would have gone a long way.

It is also a massive pain when someone wants to give you something on a usb stick. Same goes for people in publishing and other content creation industries. People who want to plug an external monitor in to give a ppt without needing a special dongle.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by nicky0 on Monday October 31, 2016 @06:29AM (#12835586)
This is your definition of "professionals"? People who use USB sticks, and external monitors for ppt?
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by idlewords on Monday October 31, 2016 @08:18AM (#12836046)
That is a perfectly sensible definition of actual professional use.

Not two days ago I presented at a conference where I had to plug an HDMI cable into my laptop, and in the middle of setting that up, I transferred over a backup copy of my presentation to the house laptop on a USB stick.

Now maybe I am not a professional in your eyes. But I was wearing a suit!

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by illumin8 on Monday October 31, 2016 @02:58PM (#12839833)
I already carry a dongle to convert Thunderbolt to VGA, because you can't count on conference room projectors having a connector made in the last decade... Now I just need to carry one more for HDMI.

I'm fairly certain that a USB-c to standard USB port will also be a dongle that every Macbook Pro owner will need to carry. Apple should bundle 2 with every Macbook Pro, but the whiners would still complain...

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by nicky0 on Tuesday November 01, 2016 @11:59AM (#12846980)
You are very much a professional in my eyes. In which case I don't see a problem wit the new MacBook. It has four ports each of which supports USB and DisplayPort.

Yes, you need either a new cable, a new flash drive, or an adapter. But don't pretend that makes this laptop totally unsuitable for your use.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by angry_octet on Tuesday November 01, 2016 @01:48AM (#12843687)
I never said that was my definition of "professionals". That is you being snarky.

The common themes to wanting a Macbook Pro is that you want more grunt and more I/O, and you have the money to pay for it. A common need among this group is exchanging large data sets, and not being willing to use iCloud/Dropbox/Google Drive to do it for a variety of reasons, like speed, convenience, confidentiality. These are also people who often want to do this in a variety of locations.

Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by nicky0 on Tuesday November 01, 2016 @11:55AM (#12846921)
You were replying to my comment asking for a definition.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by kayoone on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:37AM (#12835355)
iOS thrived on Apps, Apps built by talented developers for whom the Mac is the platform of choice. A lot of MacOs' appeal comes from great 3rd party apps as well, the first party stuff on iOS and MacOs is mostly a commodity. In the long run I believe Apple should absolutely listen to the developers/professionals that create amazing content for/on their platform which goes a long way to make the platform desirable for consumers.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by pjmlp on Monday October 31, 2016 @05:59AM (#12835459)
You don't need any of the things people are complaining about for developing iOS apps.
Re:Benjamin Button Reviews the New MacBook Pro by NormlOverrated on Monday October 31, 2016 @06:01AM (#12835466)
>But we all know you won't. You'll buy this MacBook sooner or later

Try me.