In most families and circles people go to the person in the group who knows the most about tech, usually professional user. This person will often recommend products they themselves value and are familiar with. Obviously I can't prove this effect was partly responsible for Apple's come back, but it's certainly true in all the social circles I'm a part of and I think a decent hypothesis.

I don't think anyone is asking for your number two reference. It's more that people simply want their use cases considered. In many cases they are not. You can argue that the key changes are not crucial, and that the USB ports are future looking. But what about the lack of 32gb ram? The lack of new processors? What about the sdcard reader (yes, consumers mostly use phones now and don't need it, but professional cameras are going to be using sdcards for the foreseeable future)?

When I switched to Windows, I learned Visual Studio and C# and built several customized tools that coworkers could only use on Windows. I also recommended Windows machines to family and friends, who almost all went with my recommendation.

When OSX came out, I and many other developers switched to it. Finally, a serious OS from Apple. When we did, we pulled lots of families and friends with us, and we made a lot more things (open source installers, for example) available for Mac users.

If Apple succeeds at restricting Macs to people who want lightweight, fashionable, "Apple lifestyle" accessories and need confusing things like folder hierarchies removed from the OS, many of us will move again and take those IT decisions we influence with us.

If I get off the Mac, for example, I will quickly forget how to do things I need to do to provide tech support to Mac-using family and friends, so I'll probably begin recommending Chromebooks to many of them, shifting some of my support away from their individual machines and onto web portals and web apps I build for them on my own servers.

And I went with iPhone because I was a Mac user, and I figured I would get some benefits from using the two together, which I did. If I'm no longer a Mac user, those benefits vanish, and I'll probably switch to an Android phone with an audio plug. (Maybe we developers are just a vocal minority, but we'll probably get pretty vocal to others about why we're leaving Apple if we do.)

Every year they seem to continue to introduce (via neglect/decisions/priorities) more reasons to pause at purchase time. And, recommendation time.

I'm not a developer. I run an online business and use a MacBook Pro for video recording, editing, and general website admin.

I needed the extra processing power, and the ports. The new model has me apprehensive, though I'll certainly look at it.

What's the target demographic this new MBP is serving, though?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

I think the new MBPs are, well... not good, considering the price. I really like my 2012 MacBook Air. It's still going strong, although I wish I had went for the 8GB of RAM instead of just 4.

But when I was talking about the new models with my friends and coworkers, a lot of us shared one thought: We don't think it's worth the money, but we can't spend $2000 on a laptop anyway, so whatever.

So we're not the target market.

It seems that people here don't really want one either, so 'Developers who frequent Hacker News' also doesn't seem to be the target...

It seems like maybe it's just 'wealthy people who want a sleek-looking, well made piece of hardware', which it is. Maybe it includes businesses that will provide one to their employees, and will buy the extra dongles and whatnot. There's probably a lot of them in each group. If I had the money, and didn't care that it didn't have the fastest processor, the ability to have a crazy amount of RAM, and would need an extra damn cable just to connect my iPhone, I would love to buy one too.

One thing seems pretty certain, and it's that there is room for a competitor to jump in and make a great laptop for the people who are looking for something different. I really hope someone can make it work.

I mean, I develop for the web, so I could very well switch to Windows or Linux at this point, and after some pain points, I'd probably be back up and running and around 90% as happy as I was before. But that last 10%, where things don't work quite like I want them to, well, that would grate. And over time, I'm probably going to grow to hate that machine.

Plus, what about people who make iOS apps? Or heck, even just develop for the Mac? There's literally no other option than a Mac.

This is a big part of why people are so upset, is because we can't just wait for a competitor to jump in and save us. We've let ourselves become dependant on Apple, and -- like you put it -- we seem not to be the target market anymore. As much our fault as theirs maybe, I'm not one to judge, but it still sucks.

There may be some features I'm missing though, I only use Win10 for gaming.

The message from Apple seems to be 'get an iMac'. They seem to prefer their developers to be stationary :/

In our 12-person company I introduced Macs and now everyone uses one instead of a PC. I'm not sure if businesses would have switched to Macs without some kind of endorsement from a "Hacker"-friend or employee.

If the common perception about Macs withings IT experts will change to "look nice but really not worth their money" I imagine in the long run that could hurt the sales to non-experts too.

Apple doesn't seem to know or care. I don't know who this MBP is for. Increasingly less people can justify an Apple macOS portable when an iOS device covers their requirements satisfactorily and it doesn't meet the needs of many professionals at all (present and anticipated needs for the machine's useful life).

Apple is behaving as if they're a boutique OEM.

Oh nonsense! They showed like a dozen ways that the new touch pad alone makes using professional apps easier, faster, and generally better in their keynote. They are clearly thinking specifically of the professional market. Whether they hit their mark or not is up to the market to decide. The new computers are already back-ordered by 4-5 weeks, so clearly someone's ordering them.

Does them being back-ordered matter much (outside of annoyance to consumers)?

Wouldn't it be more informative to see the absolute numbers of back orders now relative to the numbers for previous releases? For all we (public) know is that the back-ordered demand could be from smaller supply initial supply, not necessarily from record demand.

Are such numbers public knowledge?

I have absolutely 0 desire to use a tiny strip of touch above a perfectly good keyboard.

Isn't the illusion of scarcity and back orders from product launch 101 to encourage higher demand?

Lol, they were 4 weeks "back ordered" the minute they went on sale. It's not strange Apple keeps pulling this stunt (after all, they save on production costs by not actually manufacturing anything until orders come in), but it's really baffling how people keep pointing at it as a sign of success. Even the most unpopular car manufacturer will make you wait a month for a car.

(btw: "I'm certain that's probably" says it all, really.)

That's how Apple has behaved since day 1, save for the few years when Sculley was at the helm.

Not sure what you mean.

If they made the computer much faster, I imagine it'd get too hot or noisy.

The main failure IMO was that the only real innovation was a touch bar replacing function keys that as far as I can tell no one asked for or wanted.

However, macOS still beats Windows 10 because it's more intuitive and usable and has fewer quirks.

I don't want one of these because of the touchbar, though. It just seems unnecessary, and I wish they would've waited on a more practical innovation that would solve a problem and not remove physical keys and be a distraction and take away from design aesthetics.

I love some features, but the trouble on a day to day basis is not worth it.

Are you sure it's the Mac? In my experience, things suddenly start working on the network once you remove Windows from the equation.

I also used to have very slow transmission speeds between the two devices until I changed the mac to 2.4G (from 5G) (PC is wired)

http://www.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-ch...

I can observe a slow tendency that our corporate Mac image piles on more and more junk over time, probably because more people are using Macs than the year before and thus IT allocates more headcount to work on Mac customizations.

A lot of professionals have workflows / infrastructure that does not rely on the specs of any individual computer. Past a certain point it's the only practical approach for scaling. I suspect the vocal minority are the users in the upper end of the prosumer range who can't really justify moving to truly pro workflows / infrastructure.

Are you suggesting that they are Pro'ing it wrong?! Your comment reeks of no True Scotsman: if a persons workflow is local, then it's not "truly pro". You seem to be forgetting that not all people can be wired into the pro infrastructure all every time they need to do work (travel, connectivity).

If what they're doing works for them it's not wrong but in this case it's not working anymore. Now they have to switch operating systems, software and workflows just because a specific model of laptop wasn't updated at exactly the right time. Switching to PC laptops may be an option for some but they will still have to depend on Intel/AMD and PC OEMs to provide them with an option that perfectly fits their needs. That's only a slightly safer bet. It's not practical for everyone to build out a pro infrastructure for themselves but (especially in the case of developers) it's at least something they need to consider.

Consumers don't need Macbook Pros, they need at max Macbook Airs. A lot of them can be served by iPad Pros. And the vast majority by iPhones.

So yes, Apple is shooting itself in the foot.

As far as I can tell, the design goals are the same. The difference is that the Pros are more expensive.

1. I don't bother giving feedback much anymore

2. I invented my own programming language

I keep wanting to invent my own Kindle. Amazon comes out with new version after new version, and they've implemented 0 of my feature suggestions :-(

- 16GB max RAM

- Function keys

Personally I am only concerned about the RAM, I don't use the function keys ever and I can remap another key to replace ESC. I would have gladly forked over for a 32GB MBP, instead I just ordered an i7 ThinkPad x220, extra RAM and an SSD to see if I can do my day to day work on it before buying a top spec non-Apple X86 laptop.

Dell XPS 15" (9550) goes up to 32GB - upgradable after purchase with 2x memory slots.

e:

Links for the 15" with 32GB:

Dell Australia: http://www.dell.com/au/p/xps-15-9550-laptop/pd?oc=z510896au&...

Dell USA: http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/productdetails/xps-15-9550-la...

Your body will naturally fluctuate double that in a day without your knowing.

Given the MacBook Pro has been 4.4 lbs for 4 years and given other companies have managed to make much lighter 15 inch machines it just seemed inevitable that the new MacBook Pros would also be much lighter. Maybe not 2.4 lbs lighter but certainly more then the 0.3 lbs we got. Basically it's not enough to justify upgrading so yea I'm disappointed and given I'll probably have to wait another 2+ years for any hope of getting something lighter from Apple it's certainly on my radar to consider switching.

As for my body, for whatever reason 4.5 lbs on my shoulders or back feels much heavier than 4.5 lbs of fluids in my body. Especially in hot/humid areas like pretty much anywhere in Asia in the summer.

Let me add, if they had announced machines that were significantly lighter don't you think people would be more excited? I can even imagine Apple coming up with some name like "The new Lighter MacBook Pro made with AirSteel(tm). The Macbook Pro's AirSteel case is 1/3 the weight of aluminum and twice as strong!"

(A backpack would probably feel better than a messenger bag, but my local train line is often too crowded to carry a backpack)

I've commuted on the Central line in London with a backpack and it's fine. The only place where it might get more rammed is Tokyo - where you get shoved onto the train. Just put it on the ground between your legs.

> checks /u/ramchips' user profile

>see's ramchip is in Tokyo

Well, uh. Carry on then.

have you ever considered getting an Air and using AWS for power? i might be clueless, thinkpad user here. and i lob a 19cell flatbattery around that weighs at 0.5 kilo itself.

LG makes a 15" 2.1 lbs laptop. The case is made of magnesium alloy. The specs aren't as good as a MBP but that's not really the point. The point is NOT that I want the LG. The point is that it seems possible to make the MBP much lighter.

Examples: An i7 doesn't weigh pounds more than an i5. 32gig of ram does not weight pounds more than 8gig of ram. 2TB SSD does not weigh pounds more than 512GB SSD. I have no idea if a 15" HD-DPI display weighs a lot more than a 15" 1920 display weighs. The LG even has all standard ports 4 USB-A type plugs, HDMI, etc. There was no need to make it thinner and switch to USB-C mini to get the weight down.

So that basically seems to leave battery, second GPU, case, fans, maybe keyboard and display as what's making the MBP stay heavy. I guess I tend to believe the LG with the same specs as the MBP would be at least 1 pound lighter than the current MPB