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Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by chishaku on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:58AM (#12735710)
> I'm not sure that there's a realistic way out of the decades-deep hole

I'm not either. I think broad-stroke laws reversing much of the damage are necessary.

We need a law prohibiting secret law. Any legally-binding statute, regulation, opinion or judgement that is not published to the Federal Register within 18 months would be rendered invalid.

Regarding government documents in general, I think everything should be published by default. Instead of FOIA applications to have information published, agencies should be applying to keep their documents secret.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by nickff on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:13PM (#12735886)
>"We need a law prohibiting secret law. Any legally-binding statute, regulation, opinion or judgement that is not published to the Federal Register within 18 months would be rendered invalid."

The federal agencies continually avoid the Federal Register by issuing 'guidance letters' and 'advisory opinions', as well as re-interpreting existing rules in very creative ways. What is really needed is greater fidelity to the structural protections by the constitution (such as the Bill of Rights and non-delegation), but I have lost almost all hope of that coming to pass.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by caseysoftware on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:53PM (#12736364)
This is why "term limits" sound great in theory but are worthless in practice.

The people who are writing these laws by another name (guidance letters, recommendations, etc) are nameless, faceless people who no one will ever know. And unless it's an official "memorandum of understanding" or similar, we won't even know their names.

The people we see and hear in the news are just the distraction so we miss the real show.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by zanny on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:37PM (#12737358)
This can only happen when you lack accountability and actual representation in a republic. I've concluded that the general chain of reasoning is this:

Unrepresented -> Corruption -> Money -> Corporate Influence -> Gerrymandering / First Past the Post / Term Limits -> Whole election system is fucked

The way the US, and most other governments, are organized is broken because of a lack of humanity. If you try having one person represent millions, those millions will always be numbers to anyone, and that person will just be a name on a ballot to the numbers. Real representation requires a personal relationship, and that means you need to build government on the foundation of your community first. I generally see every position added to the ballot as a failure of a republic, because what you really should be doing is electing, say, a regional council (using STV or other proportional voting systems) whom then both nominates higher offices and appoints everything you would normally have on the ballot. Because that is their job, and you would not be picking between the lesser of two evils on a ticket but one of a few hundred of your neighbors who is exemplary who would do the best job.

Most people I know, at least in less dense neighborhoods (and community interaction in cities and dense living always has been problematic) can name someone who lives around them they would want to represent them in government. And you are much more likely to have reason to trust, and hold responsible, your neighbor than some guy who lives in the richest part of the city, state, or country and whom you will never meet in person, and they will never know you to give a damn about your liberty.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by mahyarm on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @04:12PM (#12738218)
You have synchronization problems when every hill has it's own fiefdom. You get political deadlock, effective NIMBYism, corruption too small to get sunlight repeated at every hill, and things like making a metro transit system impossible because 60 municipalities can't work together.

Just think about the general issues of a HOA gone bad and how hard it can be to deal with it without great personal cost. That is the problem of micro government in a nutshell.

Scalable government is a hard problem in general.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rhizome on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @05:20PM (#12738827)
We've been seeing this in practice as the spotlight has shone on the white-flight enclaves in and around St. Louis after the Michael Brown killing.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by StillBored on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @05:25PM (#12738863)
This hits close to an idea that has been floating around for a while. Basically, the Apportionment Act of 1911 needs to be replaced, with something that sets the number of representatives equal to some population number (say one representative for every 10k people. One of the suggestions is to set that number equal to the population of the smallest district. The idea gains a lot of support when its presented that people who live in certain states have "more" access to congress because their representatives represent fewer people. I'm to lazy to dig up the actual numbers but IIRC there is something like a 40% difference between the most populous district and the least. I've also wondered if massively increasing the number of representatives (say a few thousand) would help to remove some of the special interests, as it would take a small army to wine/dine the entire congress. Except, that I guess some of these interests basically have infinite money and could actually afford that army.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by zanny on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:09PM (#12739180)
The problem is that laws themselves are localized. How would you form districts or states or even local government without a "local"? If you had one giant congress for all of the US that maintained humanity by having a representative per reasonable limits of human empathy (Dunbar's Number, or 150-300, and a good politician who is very empathic might reach up to 500) you would have a million and a half representatives, maximally democratic in that you only need find 300 like minded people in 320 million to support your candidate to have a representative, but completely alocal. That body would only be able to write laws that apply nationally, with no local distinctions, without bringing in the same defective mechanisms we see today pork barreling legislation into incomprehensible babel nobody reads with exceptionalism and stipulation on where and how the rules apply.

You would need a way to make local law not geopgraphically local but ideologically local. I would love to hear ideas on how you could ever manage that, but my proposition sacrifices some of the humanity potential (if you are voting STV for a local council in a town of 3,000, and have 10 members, in theory each member represents 300 people but nobody will personally know all 3,000 and thus is limited in candidate to whomever they do know, or worse, someone they take at face value like they do today). You lose quite a bit of democracy there, in that some people probably will not have a candidate they like - there are certainly more than 10 distinct political viewpoints in 3,000 people.

But I'd also think such systems would promote people to live with the like minded. If you disagree strongly with your neighbors... you are probably in a bad neighborhood for your own good and happiness. Surrounding yourself with enemies in your daily life provides a fulfilling life to few. But that goes down a deeper rabbit hole of people not considering nuance in where they life - they place work and profit ahead of all else, and will prefer a trash bin in the Bay Area over less lucrative ventures elsewhere they can have a more fulfilling life in general.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by lakmear on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @05:56PM (#12739084)
California is the worst in the United States when it comes to the population vs state legislator issue. 80 members of the assembly and 40 members of the senate for 38.4 million people. Compare that to Vermont with 150 members of the House and 30 senators for a population 600,000. California could be construed as taxation without representation. You are completely correct that more legislators means less big lobbyist influence.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by dragonwriter on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:00PM (#12739122)
California citizens retain legislative power and exercise it fairly freely including on matters of taxation, where they have sharply constrained the elected legislature, and retain the power of referendum to undo any act of the legislature (whether on tax or other matters.) As such, whatever the ratio of citizens to members of the legislature, it's ludicrous to suggest that it is "taxation without representation."
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by lakmear on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:04PM (#12739147)
I didn't mean to imply I am complaining about taxes. It's just a phrase to hammer home the lack of representation.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by nitrogen on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:39PM (#12737953)
I would like to see a system of government that is similarly granular to your suggestion, but on technical lines rather than geographical. I tend to agree with very, very few of my neighbors on some issues, so rather than having to form a geographically local coalition, maybe better representation can be achieved by allowing the like-minded to choose representation across geographic boundaries, or to choose different representatives for different categories.

While we're at it, could we make this hypothetical government's legislature use a fractional (or maybe one-citizen-one-vote) tally, with representatives acting as proxies that individuals could override for specific votes?

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by clock_tower on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @08:10PM (#12739854)
One thing that the Ottoman Empire did well (although not as legislature): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_%28Ottoman_Empire%29
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rjbwork on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:19PM (#12737770)
Well, congress has kept their constituents per critter at almost criminally high levels for going on a century now.

As we see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_congressional_ap...

It is constitutionally provided for to have ~30k citizens per critter. But congress is left to determine how many critters there should be. Providing more critters, and thus less people per critter would reduce the amount of power they wield individually, thus there are absolutely perverse incentives at work to keep our congressional representation as citizens to a minimum.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by no-s on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @07:42PM (#12739733)
We don't need term limits for people. People come with built in term limits of one form or another. What we need are term limits for laws. Absolute Sunset should be built into the constitution and every law, regulation, charter, advisory, authorization, order, or any other kind of governmental rule should be subject to it. At regular intervals we should require our elected representatives to explicitly affirm, without debate, the existing laws. void all the ones that don't get reaffirmed at the end of the session. That way we'll always know whether the politicians can be trusted to make the right choices and also it will put a limit on how complex government can be.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by adrianratnapala on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:42PM (#12736227)
The federal agencies continually avoid the Federal Register by issuing 'guidance letters' and simply re-interpreting existing rules in very creative ways

Yes, Chikasu's broad-stroke laws can only work if they are part of a cultural shift away from seing micromanagement as the government's job.

The agencies are what they are from the mentality that everything in our society must be "run" perhaps by a "czar". People call this regulation, but in order to run things, the authorities need not laws and predictable rules, but arbitrary (if scope-limited) powers.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by gohrt on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:19PM (#12737201)
Are 'guidance letters' and 'advisory opinions' secret?
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rayiner on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:28PM (#12737285)
No. And they're also not legally binding. And an agency treating guidance as legally binding is also a great way to get the guidance overturned in court, because there are strict legal requirements for the procedures agencies must follow before issuing binding rules.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rhizome on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @05:21PM (#12738841)
Can a person be fired from their government job for refusing to adhere to a guidance letter or opinion?
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rayiner on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:34PM (#12739325)
Almost certainly, but that's true for any employee refusing to follow an instruction from an employer.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rhizome on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @07:17PM (#12739607)
Seems like they become de facto law at that point.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rayiner on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @09:35AM (#12743604)
Not at all. A "law" is where the government tells you or I what to do in its capacity as the government. These directives are where the government leadership tells its own organs and employees what to do in their capacity as leaders of a large organization.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rhizome on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:54PM (#12746613)
Right, I know how the legalistic mind works. My point is about where "its own organs and employees" meets the citizenry. Leadership means these things permeate the org chart, and you can't segregate this stuff into a closed box of "their capacity as leaders."
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by TelmoMenezes on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:24PM (#12736007)
> We need a law prohibiting secret law.

I am not American, and much less an expert in law, but isn't this already illegal? From what I gather, American law ultimately rests on the same western civilization ideas that already come from the Roman Empire and before. Surely your constitution or other fundamental laws should already cover this, or am I wrong?

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by nickff on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:29PM (#12736078)
If you strictly interpret the constitution, a great deal of federal agencies and actions are clearly disallowed, but these restrictions have been gradually eroded (most notably during and since the 1930s). The US government is supposed to be one of enumerated powers, and it was never granted the power to create anything like the Department of Health and Human Services, the Department of Education, or the Federal Electoral Commission. There is no provision for any warrant-less searches (which violate the Fourth Amendment), and campaign finance laws clearly violate the First Amendment (strictly read). Delegation of the power to criminalize activities is also not allowed by the constitution, yet there are thousands of regulatory crimes. The Tenth Amendment is clearly a dead-letter now.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rayiner on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:57PM (#12737544)
I lean strongly textualist and I disagree with your conclusion.

1) The federal government is one of enumerated powers, but it has plenary authority over areas it is allowed to regulate. The Constitution gave the federal government the power to tax, spend, and "regulate interstate commerce." In a world where interstate commerce is pervasive, giving the federal government those powers allows it to do almost pretty much everything. But those are the words on the page! Just because the result might have surprised framers who were thinking about independent agrarian farmers for whom an interstate transaction might be the rare exception does not mean you can ignore what the words on the page mean.

2) As to agencies, the Constitution creates an executive, and contemplates the existence of executive deparments. The first agency, the customs service, was created by the first Congress in 1789!

3) The Constitution prohibits only "unreasonable" searches and seizures. That implies the power to search and seize. And the idea that warrentless searches are presumptively unreasonable is as much a judicial-created gloss on the Constitution as the idea of exceptions to the warrant requirement. Remember: the very first Congress created a scheme of warrantless searches by the Customs Service.

4) The non-delegation principle is itself a judicially-created concept. It's not in the Constitution.

5) The 10th amendment never meant anything. It literally says "any power not granted to the federal government is reserved to the states or to the people." It doesn't provide any basis for deciding what those powers are. Take something like Obamacare. If that's a legitimate exercise of of the taxing or commerce power, it by definition cannot violate the 10th amendment because it's an exercise of an enumerated power. And if it wasn't a valid exercise of those powers, it's void for not being a valid exercise of an enumerated power. The 10th amendment can never be the reason a law is invalid.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by nickff on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:24PM (#12737820)
1) You are interpreting the 'Necessary and Proper" clause without respect to the 'proper' part of it. I agree that effective regulation of many areas requires regulation of intrastate commerce, but that is improper.

2) Customs was a power given to the federal government, as it was the primary method of taxation, and regulation of international commerce.

3) The ratifiers of the Constitution were most concerned with preventing general warrants, as had been commonly issued by the British as a tool of invasive monitoring and oppression, and the Fourth Amendment was included to prevent these practices. The warrant-less searches we see today are operating in a manner similar to the general warrants, but without even an explicit general warrant.

4) The Constitution has no provision allowing for Congress to delegate any criminal, civil, or regulatory law or rule-making, thus such delegation is un-enumerated and impermissible. The president only has the authority to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed", and not even to exercise discretion in an arbitrary fashion.

5) The Tenth Amendment is simply an explicit statement that all powers not explicitly mentioned in Article I, Section 8 are out-of-bounds for the federal government.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rayiner on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:40PM (#12737954)
1) No I'm not. Article I, Section 8, gives Congress power to "To regulate commerce . . . among the several states." When I buy a snickers bar at a vending machine in D.C. using a debit card associated with my California bank, that's interstate commerce. No need for a "necessary and proper" analysis.

2) Nothing in the Constitution gives the federal government power over "customs." It gives Congress the power to "collect duties." Clearly, Congress interpreted that in 1789 to mean it could create an agency to administer the collection of duties. But that same reasoning applies to any other agency, when the subject of that agency's duties involves an enumerated power.

3) General warrants gave authorities the right to go into peoples' houses and search them for contraband with no probable cause. Warrantless searches we see today do not allow the government to do that. Also: the Constitution doesn't say anything about general warrants. It just prohibits "unreasonable searches." What is there in the text of the Constitution to say that an warrantless exigent circumstances search or a border search is "unreasonable?" Besides your own opinion?

4) The Constitution "vests" legislative powers in Congress. The non-delegation doctrine interprets "vests" to require Congress to exercise those powers itself, but nothing about the words requires that construction. E.g. Article I gives Congress the power to "collect taxes." Obviously Congress can delegate that authority--the Constitution clearly does not contemplate Congress itself going out and collecting taxes.

5) No, the 10th amendment says "the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution" are out of bounds for the federal government. But the 10th amendment isn't what makes that true--it's inherent in the design of the Constitution. So any 10th amendment issue is really a fight about what was "delegated to the United States by the Constitution."

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by nickff on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:58PM (#12738106)
1) I agree that regulation of the importation of chocolate bars from one state to another is within the proper power of Congress, though regulation of the actual vending machine would clearly be up to the state. On the other hand, I have read Article I Section 8 many times, and I still cannot agree that Wickard v. Filburn was correctly decided; I would say that the federal regulation of intrastate commerce was necessary to that scheme, but it was improper.

2) I agree that Congress created the Customs Service to carry out an enumerated power according to laws passed by Congress, and would say that the Navy, Internal Revenue Service, and Treasury were created in a manner compliant with the constitution (and its amendments). Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, and the Department of Education are not compliant with the Constitution.

3) I agree that searches of foreigners at the border are not even required to be reasonable, and searches of citizens must only be reasonable. Reading people's correspondence without a warrant was never considered 'reasonable', and I have no evidence that 'metadata' was considered less important than the contents of the correspondence. There is also no provision for 'collecting and storing information about citizens, but not looking at it unless you really want to'.

4) According to my reading of the Constitution, Congress must establish the laws/rules for the collection of revenue, and fund/authorize the relevant agency. After Congress does this, it is the President's job to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed", which I interpret as meaning that they should hire and supervise people to do the job Congress told them to do.

5) I sympathize with your view, but the entire Bill of Rights was meant to be a dead-letter by that definition. I am sure you aware that some founders made the case that the Bill of Rights was entirely superfluous, as the federal government had never been given the power to regulate speech or firearms, search citizens arbitrarily and invasively, force them to confess to crimes, or forcibly station soldiers in their homes. Unfortunately, the Bill of Rights has proven to be vital (if insufficient) to the preservation of liberty.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by tptacek on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @10:07AM (#12743868)
Regarding (3): There's no direct connection in the Constitution between the word "reasonable" and the word "warrant". "Warrant" is there to to limit the scope of the kinds of warrants that can be generated --- to prevent the "general warrant". "Reasonable" is there to make sure all searches, with or without a warrant, must survive a "reasonableness" test --- they must be related to some legitimate goal of government. If you attempt to design a legal system off the idea that all searches require warrants, you wind up in crazytown: for instance, the police, apprehending a mugger they have just observed holding up a couple at gunpoint, cannot reasonably search the criminal.

Regarding (5): The framers in fact rejected a previous iteration of the language of the 10th Amendment that would have reserved to the states any powers not expressly delegated in the Constitution. So we know that's not what they meant.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by nickff on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @12:22PM (#12745166)
Saying that a search "must be related to some legitimate goal of government" is no limitation at all. I would agree that searches incident to arrest (for a cause other than refusing a voluntary search) are not required (by the constitution) to have a warrant, but am not sure what other un-warranted searches are reasonable. The kings of England would certainly say that preventing assassinations and insurrections was "some legitimate goal of government", but it seems the founders disagreed that kings should be ransacking the houses of their subjects.

Yes, I agree that the states were not delegated all powers not expressly delegated by the constitution, but "the people and the states" were. I have never heard a better explanation for the 10th amendment than to say that it was restating the enumerated powers doctrine (though I cannot recall where I first heard that explanation). If you have a better explanation of the 10th amendment, I am very interested to learn what it is.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by tptacek on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:10PM (#12746191)
If you concede that a search incident to arrest requires no warrant, you've already conceded the argument that the Constitution doesn't require warrants for all searches (which is good, because it clearly doesn't), and we can move on.

Regarding your second point: the change was not "states" vs. "people and the states". The change was whether the rights referred to were solely those expressed in the Constitution, or something broader. Broader won. This is an argument you are going to need to take up with the authors of the Constitution, because they do not agree with you.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by Zigurd on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @04:47PM (#12738538)
The 10th Amendment is also about future-proofing the Constitution.

On the one side you have the "But the Framers didn't have machine-guns, or CRISPR." On the other side you have people who would ask "So I don't actually have a right to use strong encryption? I don't have a right to build a rocket? I don't have any rights that were not imagined by the Framers? All new inventions have to be allowed before they can be used?"

Otherwise anything could be "necessary and proper."

So, let's have a hypothetical about something really fundamental: If I could CRISPRize negligible senescence, or superintelligence, do I have the right to do it?

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rayiner on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @05:37PM (#12738960)
Just because the Constitution does not exclusively enumerate rights does not mean any particular right not enumerated exists. In English law, "rights" arose from law and tradition. It's a fundamentally backward-looking analysis, not a forward-looking one.

Do you have the right to use strong encryption? If you can fit it into a right the framers would have recognized based on English law and tradition (probably free speech), then yes. If not, then no. The 10th amendment has nothing to say about that.

Fundamentally, the Constitution is not really about "rights." The Bill of Rights was added to appease those who were worried the central government would impinge on the traditional rights of Englishmen. But the real purpose of the exercise was to create a powerful, but democratic, central government that had the authority to do the things that needed to be done.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by Zigurd on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @09:50PM (#12740364)
Was the Constitution always interpreted that way? Was it written by people who thought that way? The assertion that the Xth Amendment is a nullity seems to indicate a shift in the way the Constitution fits in law. Or at least it indicates that the interaction between deference to that document and the way US law evolved turned some words that people who wrote them thought meant something into a nullity.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rayiner on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @10:34PM (#12740558)
Many people at the time thought the 10th amendment was superfluous: http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2013/03/05/a-brief-history-o....

To be precise, the 10th amendment is a nullity if you already accept that the federal government is one of enumerated powers. At the time of the founding, that was a novel concept and it probably made some people feel better to have it stated explicitly. But today that's taken as a given. The debate is never over if the government has powers not enumerated, but whether a particular action falls within the scope of an enumerated power. And the 10th amendment tells you nothing about the scope of the enumerated powers.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by nathanaldensr on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:11PM (#12736574)
The Constitution is simply a means to an end now; it's merely a political talking point. It stopped being the actual basis for ethical, legal governing a long time ago.

If your house's foundation (the Constitution) is crumbling, do you continue to build on top of it (laws) to keep the house from collapsing?

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by dwe3000 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:56PM (#12737008)
I think your analogy is a little misleading. In my opinion, the foundation is still strong, but where the foundation was for one shape of house, the additions and changes made on top of the foundation are unstable.

I do agree that for most discussions around US Federal government, the Constitution does not play an ethical or legal role.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by TelmoMenezes on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:28PM (#12739292)
> If your house's foundation (the Constitution) is crumbling, do you continue to build on top of it (laws) to keep the house from collapsing?

To me this is one of those statements that might sound superficially wise, but hides something very dark. Yes, if you take the analogy literally, it seems foolish to build on crumbling foundations. But that sort of literalism might be silly here.

What do you mean by "crumbling"? The entire project of a democratic republic lies on the collective respect for a set of rules that provide the scaffolding for all power to be granted by the people, according to the will of the people, to do what the people think is best for them. Right? That's the whole idea of government in the American sense, correct?

Now if the political class starts to ignore some of the ground rules (which is equivalent to taking power for itself), and nobody prevents this, can we claim that the democratic republic maintained its integrity? Or was democracy itself eroded? And if the answer to this last question is yes, how can one defend that the moral choice is to just accept it? Shouldn't we obviously demand strict observance of the ground rules, so that the legitimacy of those who exercise power in our name is unquestionable, before anything else? And then try to change the ground rules if the majority feels that they no longer serve us? And then strictly observe the new rules so that legitimacy is not compromised, and so on? Or am I just crazy?

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by pharrlax on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @09:47PM (#12740346)
>If your house's foundation (the Constitution) is crumbling, do you continue to build on top of it (laws) to keep the house from collapsing?

Obviously a country is not a house, and countries have been very successful with only a single constitution (America) and with many (France). But generally changing constitutions frequently does not make for a politically stable state, and much in terms of quality of life rests on political stability.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by gohrt on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:20PM (#12737213)
Why do constitutional scholars disagree with your interpretation?
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rayiner on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:26PM (#12737268)
> We need a law prohibiting secret law.

We don't need a law for that, because non-public directives already don't have the force of law. Agencies already go through an extraordinarily involved process any time they make binding legal obligations. They are not only published, but usually the subject of notice and comment procedures and are subject to extensive judicial review.

Those processes don't apply to what the article is talking about, because the article calls "law" what is actually legal advice to the government about what is legal or not under existing laws. Like any organization, the government has counsel. The government asks that counsel "can we do this?" The answers to those questions are not law, they're legal advice.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by chishaku on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:42PM (#12737411)
The article and the report it refers to describe multiple categories of directives and opinions/judgements that apparently do have the force of law.

Those categories include national security directives, OLC legal interpretations, congressional-executive agreements, immigration court proceedings, FISA court opinions that have "set the legal terms for mass surveillance programs" and bills that "incorporate provisions of classified reports by reference, bestowing on them the status of law."

https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/publicatio...

I think we need a law to ensure that all such documents are published in a timely manner.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rayiner on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:26PM (#12737836)
National security directives set policy and instruct government bodies. They're an exercise of the President's plenary authority to tell the executive branch what to do, not lawmaking. OLC legal interpretations are legal advice, not laws. Federal agencies may rely on those interpretations to take certain actions, but they cannot regulate private conduct. Congressional-executive agreements pertain to controlling trade policy, an area over which Congress and the President have plenary authority to begin with.

Immigration court proceedings are secret, but they're not an exercise of law making. Neither are FISA court opinions, which are interpretations of whether something is legal under the 4th amendment and/or FISA.

Now, you can say it would be great if these things were all public. I happen to agree. But internal directives and policies that are only binding on the government are not "laws." They're not an exercise of the government's power to regulate private conduct. They're an exercise of the government's power to control how government bodies use their discretion.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by pc2g4d on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @04:34PM (#12738401)
Interesting points, but I don't see how you can argue that FISA decisions do not have force of law. It's a _court_ applying and interpreting law, which we all know (Roe v. Wade, Brown v. the Board, etc.) can have as sweeping and definite of legal consequences as any statute passed by Congress.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by rayiner on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @09:39AM (#12743632)
While court precedents can have the effect of creating law, FISA decisions don't regulate private conduct. Also, like many courts, FISA publishes both precedential and non-precedential opinions. It's not clear that there are any precedential FISA opinions that haven't been published.
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by chishaku on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @10:31AM (#12744093)
The report intentionally uses the term "secret law" in quotes. I'm not arguing that the above items are "laws" by the technical definition.

> Now, you can say it would be great if these things were all public. I happen to agree.

In any case, we're agreed on the main point of the article and the point of my original comment.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by tptacek on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @10:13AM (#12743912)
An acid test: is a federal judge bound by an OLC legal interpretation? I believe the answer to be a clear "no". How can it then be "law"?
Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by chishaku on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @10:25AM (#12744037)
Please read the report. The term "secret law" is purposefully used with quotes. While not all of the above categories are technically "laws," they often have the force of law and are significantly influencing the actions of the government and its citizens.

Do you think that given the potential impact on such issues as torture, extrajudicial killings, and mass surveillance, this growing body of "secret law" should see the light of day? This is the key question.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by tptacek on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @10:33AM (#12744111)
If a law-alike like an OLC opinion isn't recognized by judges, how can it have "the force of law"?

Are the General Orders of the Chicago Police Department --- the giant binder of rules the CPD sets for the conduct of its employees --- law under this definition?

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by chishaku on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @10:44AM (#12744208)
If an OLC opinion is the difference between torture and no torture or extrajudicial killing and no extrajudicial killing, it should be public.

If an elected official cites an OLC opinion as justification for torture in front of a judge and has a fighting chance of being vindicated, then I consider that OLC opinion to have the "force of the law" irrespective of any conventional technical definition.

In any case, the argument over semantics is uninteresting.

The key question posed by the report and upon which my original comment hinges is whether or not the directives, opinions, judgements, and bills informally described as "secret law" should be made transparent.

I think they should. I don't know what you think because you didn't respond to the question.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by tptacek on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @10:51AM (#12744288)
We can agree that OLC opinions authorizing torture are bad without agreeing that they are law. One of the things that makes those OLC decisions bad is that they are lawless: they contravene the law. (The other, obviously, is that torture is inherently wrong).

Government officials probably cannot cite an OLC opinion in court in front of a judge as justification for torture. That's what my first comment on this thread pointed out. OLC opinions do not create binding precedent, any more than Wesley Snipes's tax lawyer's opinions did for his case.

Re:The Government’s Addiction to ‘Secret Law’ by oldmanjay on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:22PM (#12736694)
Why would you give them 18 months to do whatever they wanted? A loophole you can use to park a container ship seems to miss the point.