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Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by tptacek on Monday October 17, 2016 @02:39PM (#12727890)
The magnitude of the falseness of this equivalence tells you everything you need to know about Wikileaks role in this election.

Implied in it is the idea that the Clinton campaign had an obligation to release their opposition research on Trump as soon as they had it. But of course, they have no such obligation: they're not journalists!

On the other hand, Wikileaks clearly is structuring their releases to draw out the impact on the Clinton campaign and (vainly) to blunt the impact of Trump's own behavior (mostly, Clinton has won the news cycles despite these attempts).

But Wikileaks is not supposed to be an organ of the Trump campaign. Unlike the HRC campaign, Wikileaks ostensibly does have an obligation to serve the public interest. It clearly does not honor that obligation; instead, it's transparently servicing the Trump campaign.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by awinder on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:24PM (#12728487)
Exactly. These weren't excavated as part of the next horrible Raiders of the Lost Arc reboots. They're recorded convos on the Howard stern show. Anyone could have found it.

Better way of looking at it is: what would the effect be of the media letting a psychopath through until the late stages, letting the election get close, and then and only then actually educating the voting public on some of the most unsavory parts of his past?

The answer, if it isn't clear, is in the 50% bump in debate viewers over the 2008 election.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by komali2 on Monday October 17, 2016 @06:31PM (#12730409)
The debates that didn't run commercials?
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by gaius on Monday October 17, 2016 @02:45PM (#12727955)
I think Wikileaks is definitely anti-Clinton but it's a stretch to say they're pro-Trump.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by tptacek on Monday October 17, 2016 @02:51PM (#12728034)
People keep saying that. It is the single most common rebuttal given to this argument. But I can't understand how it makes any sense at all.

It's a two-person race. It's zero-sum. To materially oppose one candidate is to materially support the other. That is, i assume, why Trump's campaign keeps claiming they coordinate directly with Assange through an intermediary.

Can someone (calmly) explain why anyone should take seriously the idea that Assange can singlehandedly run virtually the entire opposition research campaign against Hillary Clinton and not be supporting Trump?

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by existencebox on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:58PM (#12729026)
Let me take on that question, as someone who would willingly attack Hillary while simultaneously refusing to support Trump.

If I want to be internally consistent as a supporter of truth/justice/liberty/all those tasty things, I MUST NOT hesitate to release damaging information along those lines for the sake of a "lesser of two evils" justification. Your statement of zero-sum two person race is also a principle I believe one must sacrifice a "lesser of two evils" discussion to rally against, I believe that accepting we are in a two person race is part and parcel with the level of polarization/group-think we're seeing nowadays. The first steps to a better world in my eyes are to question EVERYTHING and become as vehemently anti-tribal as possible, and that means not withholding things that my moral code would demand I act on, even if it might harm the horse I'm rooting for. (quite to the opposite actually, if I saw that my main candidate had flaws and wasn't getting called out on them, I would see it as my obligation to do so even MORE so, since to whitewash in that direction to my eyes weakens what would otherwise be a valid stance. e.g., all things have negatives, even perhaps a positive choice, but to ignore them is duplicitous.)

tl;dr, my goals in this are not "this election" or "this candidate"; it's "getting people to question more"; "getting people to realize it doesn't NEED to be a zero-sum game". One may say this is idealistic/drop in the ocean etc; but I cannot reconcile with my personal philosophy giving up, because if I did, then there is no justification for ANYONE ELSE to push for these "impossible" goals, and thus the status quo/tragedy of the commons continues.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by tptacek on Monday October 17, 2016 @04:20PM (#12729286)
To believe that's what Assange is trying to do, you'd have to explain away the drip-drip scheduling of the releases and the (often false) editorializing he does with decontextualized snippets from the email leaks. It's not simply that Assange is exclusively leaking stolen emails from Democrats, but the manner in which he's doing it.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by existencebox on Monday October 17, 2016 @07:39PM (#12730834)
That's a fair point, I can't say I'm as tuned into the drama as tightly as I should (or shouldn't, for my mental sanity?) be. I was more addressing the general case of your question; can his local actions of seeming uniformly opposing one party occur out of any incentive other than being in the pocket of that party, and additionally your statement re: zero-sum-game given that being an argument I find frustrating. Taking into account broader context should adjust your prior, for sure.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by tptacek on Monday October 17, 2016 @09:40PM (#12731366)
Yeah, I completely agree! that there is a way for a "leak broker" trying to serve the same role as WL to responsibly publish leaked email dumps from Russian hackers, even if those hackers are only sourcing from the Democrats and not the Republicans. It is not my argument that third parties can't publish unfavorable things about Clinton without implicitly supporting Trump!

The problem is that what Wikileaks is doing is much worse than that.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by zzleeper on Monday October 17, 2016 @02:55PM (#12728073)
I think Assange doesn't care that much who is elected, as long as it's not Hillary (because of the things she did against him and the things she promised to do). In this case his only choice is Trump, but it could have been others.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by tptacek on Monday October 17, 2016 @02:56PM (#12728088)
To believe that Assange is motivated by a vendetta against HRC, you not only have to conjure up a plausible motive for that vendetta despite Clinton's marginal role in any of the US's dealings with Wikileaks, but also rationalize his efforts to put into power someone who has promised to put Edward Snowden to death.

No, not buying it.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by matthewrobertso on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:28PM (#12728564)
Does HRC wanting to drone strike Assange qualify as something he might be concerned about?

https://www.rt.com/usa/361459-secretary-clinton-drone-assang...

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by JamesBarney on Monday October 17, 2016 @04:02PM (#12729067)
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by DominikR on Monday October 17, 2016 @04:23PM (#12729336)
The person who wrote this article is obviously engaging in high level mental gymnastics.

She explicitly asked to have Assange assassinated -> people laughed -> until they realised she was serious because she offers arguments why it would be better to kill him.

My 2 cents: Assange is anti establishment and that's why he helps Trump.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by tptacek on Monday October 17, 2016 @04:27PM (#12729378)
It doesn't take gymnastics to reach the conclusion that the Secretary of State of the United States of America is not seriously advocating for a military strike on the Ecuadorian embassy in the largest city of our closest ally. The notion that Clinton wants to "drone" Assange is about as credible as the notion that she and Podesta discussed murdering Antonin Scalia in a "Wetworks" operation.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by luminiferous on Monday October 17, 2016 @07:33PM (#12730788)
Wasn't this supposed drone quote said before Assange entered the Ecuadorian embassy? The quote was in 2010, but Assange wasn't at the embassy until 2012. Not to say I believe that Clinton was seriously considering assassinating Assange, but I don't think that not wanting a drone strike in the middle of London is a valid argument against it.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by tptacek on Monday October 17, 2016 @09:42PM (#12731377)
The "2010" quote is unsourced.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by DominikR on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @05:34AM (#12733073)
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by tptacek on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @08:02AM (#12733610)
Yes, that is an unsourced claim.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by DominikR on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @08:24AM (#12733714)
Yes unsourced claim referenced by Assange himself with his WikiLeaks Twitter account.

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/782906224937410562

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by JamesBarney on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:41PM (#12736221)
The level of evidence for this claim is "I heard from someone that Clinton said it once, I won't tell you who that person is or provide any evidence I talked to them. But there is supporting evidence because she often jokes about drone striking troublesome adversaries."

It's not nothing, but it's pretty damn close.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by kyledrake on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:43PM (#12728810)
This is a really good point. HRC isn't necessarily good for Wikileaks, but Trump would conceivably be a lot, lot worse.

Perhaps the idea is that they might get off easier if Trump feels Wikileaks gave him an election present, but I find that to be a high risk gamble, especially at this point. That said, the argument could perhaps just as easily be made if they leaked a bunch of Trump stuff too.

I don't think anyone can really determine motives at this point with the current base of information.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by tptacek on Monday October 17, 2016 @04:44PM (#12729539)
We're not required to unspool Assange's weird motives to acknowledge that he is essentially functioning as an arm of the Trump campaign, and must know that he's doing so.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by dragonwriter on Monday October 17, 2016 @04:59PM (#12729692)
I don't see any evidence that he is providing any electoral even fit to Trump; I think he is more, in effect, serving as an arm of the Russian regime acting to undermine trust in the US leadership and government regardless of the election results than he is acting to improve Trump's electoral prospects.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by ikeboy on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:39PM (#12728753)
The obvious theory for Trump support would be:

He thinks Trump will severely harm America, and he really hates America.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by tptacek on Monday October 17, 2016 @04:20PM (#12729292)
I assume that's what he's doing. Think about that, though: to fuck over America, he'll help elect someone who has promised to kill Edward Snowden.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by gaius on Monday October 17, 2016 @04:32PM (#12729431)
As a non-American, I don't really care about US domestic politics, but I do care a very great deal about there not being a shooting war with Russia. Hillary wants to force the Russians out of Syria. So it's perfectly possible to simultaneously believe that Trump will be a terrible President, but that that's better for everyone outside the US than Hillary.

We all wanted Bernie, but he sold out :-(

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by aaroninsf on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:03PM (#12728177)
I beg to differ.

In a two horse race, throwing stones in front of one horse has an obvious and calculated effect.

There was a time when I believed in Wikileaks.

But collusion, orchestrated or not, with Putin and Trump crosses a clear line.

When you sell your services or align your actions with fascists, you are not longer serving the public interest, merely your own.

Let's not equivocate. Trump is an opportunistic fascist, apparently with aspirations to become America's analog to Putin the authoritarian fascist thug.

The cynic in me wonders what Putin has on Assange.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by ChrisAntaki on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:09PM (#12728254)
It is interesting how these releases were timed to start right after Bernie Sanders conceded.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by anthony_romeo on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:22PM (#12728437)
So for the record, I'm not really trying to cast 'blame' on one side or the other. But here's the issue. Neither of us really know who the aggressive actor is.

I can't read Hillary Clinton's mind. I can't realtalk with Julian Assange. I can't read Trump's emails. I'm not part of any intelligence community.

Was the announcement of the video timed to preempt the Wikileaks Podesta emails, or were the emails released as a direct reaction to the video? Is Wikileaks a puppet or the media? Nobody has the relevant meta-information to discern this. We're getting bombarded with scandalous new information against both candidates on a daily basis, so much so that it's nearly impossible to meaningfully judge their weight and discern who the bad actors really are.

What happens from this is we in our Trump or Hillary bubbles, or whatever bubble we may be in, with full-time jobs and a family to feed don't have the time to invest in these issues. This is really the logical conclusion of the problem with Internet/information bubbles.

The US is in a post-fact world where people get their opinions from the media rather than facts (though to some extent it's always been that way). When Wikileaks, a supposed bastion of free information appears to be biased or compromised, perhaps from possible grudges by Assange or international influence, we lose another source of that meta-information.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by shard972 on Monday October 17, 2016 @11:32PM (#12731833)
> Implied in it is the idea that the Clinton campaign had an obligation to release their opposition research on Trump as soon as they had it. But of course, they have no such obligation: they're not journalists!

But these women are coming out on their own because of cooper's question? I don't understand.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by kbenson on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:13AM (#12732020)
If you believe you are an isolated incident, it may be harder to come forth and level charges. You are working against whatever reputation, money and prestige that person may have. Once there is an indication that it is not an isolated incident, and you may be able to face it in unity with someone else, that may spur you to take the leap. Even then, you may hold back with the hope that the other person may succeed and you don't need to involve yourself.

In this case, we had Trump attempting to cast the video as entirely just talk, with no action involved. I think it's entirely within expectations that someone that had experienced this behavior may have had their hopes of justice which had risen during this incident dashed (given there wasn't an actual person to respond, just the video), and decided that was the straw that broke the camels back.

We saw this with Cosby as well, or do you think he's innocent? If you think he's not innocent, how do you explain all the people that only really spoke up loudly after the main report? We see this all the time. Coming forward is a risk, and until the perceived risk is lowered, you may not see many (or any people).

Now, it is possible that the people coming forward are making it all up, as it's always a possibility, but given the video and Trump's very affirmative statements on the video (of a 60 year old man, mind you. He should have learned long ago what is and is not okay with regard to sexual advances), I think it's far more likely that at least some of the women coming forward are telling the truth.