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Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by eli_gottlieb on Thursday October 13, 2016 @05:51PM (#12704358)
"Drive" is right. It often seems like even at the cost of getting inferior work-product, many employers have come to believe that cheap labor is a moral principle. If employers would rather hire lower-skilled workers than pay over $35k/year, the pastry chefs should unionize.
Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by wskinner on Thursday October 13, 2016 @05:57PM (#12704397)
Or perhaps Americans are OK with the pastries produced by lower-skilled workers. Maybe they can't taste a difference.
Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by davidw on Thursday October 13, 2016 @06:22PM (#12704603)
There's definitely something to this:

I spent most of the last 15 years in Italy, where people care about their food. They care a lot, and will absolutely discriminate between various tomatoes based on where they're grown, different kinds of pasta, and many other things to boot.

In the US, I think we tend to just look at the price and mostly go by that if the product is not clearly awful.

It is changing though: it's possible to get real Italian Parmigiano cheese at the Costco here in Bend, Oregon. Growing up, all I knew of "parmesan cheese" was that green crap that comes in a can, where they were apparently using wood pulp to bulk it up.

EDIT: BTW, this book by Tyler Cowen has some interesting stuff about "why food in the US was so bad": http://amzn.to/2dNxksx

Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by flukus on Thursday October 13, 2016 @07:39PM (#12705102)
I find higher quality food to be a case of rapidly diminishing returns. When I'm cooking for myself, occasionally I'll take the time to make everything from scratch with fresh ingredients and it will be nicer, but it's only 10-20% nicer (if that can be quantified) for several times more effort.
Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by koliber on Friday October 14, 2016 @08:09AM (#12707541)
I think each person values the increase in food quality differently. You could rate the difference between a store-bought packaged croissant and a freshly baked French croissant at 10-20%. I may say that the French one is 95% better, as the a store bought one is inedible for me.

Neither one of us is inherently right or wrong. It's a matter of personal opinion, and even though we try to, it is not really possible to quantify the difference as a percentage in any meaningful way.

I think the discussion here is trying to highlight that many people in the US value better food less than many people in some countries on the old continent. For a given choice, an American will not think that the difference is worth the price (or effort) while a Frenchman or an Italian (I'm trying to use example s from this thread) will not even consider eating the lesser version.

I speak from personal experience. I've spent most of my life in the US and six years ago moved to Europe. My tastes have changed, and whereas before I like American food, now my tastes have shifted and a lot of American food does not taste good to me. Now, when I go to the US, a lot of food is at best flavorless and at worst disgusting. Most glaring examples are breads, cold cuts (a.k.a sandwich meats) and tomatoes.

BTW, this is not universal across all foods. I still find American hamburgers (not fast food) to be better than their European alternatives.

Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by tracker1 on Friday October 14, 2016 @09:57PM (#12712384)
I'm not sure I'd limit it to 10-20%, there are some classes of things that are hugely different... I find that making my own stock/broth is at least twice or three times as good as pre-prepared, and even among pre-prepared there's a huge variation. This becomes much more pronounced when used as a sauce base.

I find some things I don't notice as much difference (cream, butter) as I will others (milk, eggs)... There are other things that are a matter of taste (grain, grass, grass-finished beef). I wish, for that matter, that more labels contained what they were fed especially for milk and eggs, as the difference between brands/containers and locations is huge.

I try to cook at least once a week, and sometimes that means spending a day making broth/stock (mushroom is an absolute fav, but the most expensive where I live). I find that there are just a few things that make a huge difference, and others not as much... others still are a matter of preference. I also find that mouth feel is as personal as anything else in terms of enjoying a particular food.

Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by alexc05 on Thursday October 13, 2016 @06:48PM (#12704796)
It seems he's retitled the book to "An Economist Gets Lunch: New Rules for Everyday Foodies by Tyler Cowen (2013) Paperback Paperback"

I do like yours better, but suspect that'd be less popular stateside

Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by davidw on Thursday October 13, 2016 @07:08PM (#12704935)
That wasn't the title, I just quoted it as a subject that the book covers. Sorry for the confusion.
[dead]
Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by lostlogin on Friday October 14, 2016 @04:44AM (#12706824)
The idea that the Mafia defraud themselves is quite funny and those endless movies/tv kitchen scenes would be funnier for it, "don't burn the sauce and use the real oil".
Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by erikb on Thursday October 13, 2016 @06:21PM (#12704592)
There are actually customers for both, quality for a price, and cheap mass production.
Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by munificent on Thursday October 13, 2016 @07:41PM (#12705118)
Maybe they can't afford a difference. :(
Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by JoshTriplett on Thursday October 13, 2016 @05:57PM (#12704399)
Or take steps to demonstrate the difference in quality and value. Do pastry chefs who make more money make demonstrably better pastries? Does every employer need that demonstrably better quality? Will enough people buy the pastry for the resulting price?
Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by Swizec on Thursday October 13, 2016 @05:58PM (#12704407)
"It often seems like even at the cost of getting inferior work-product, many customers have come to believe that cheap pastries are a moral principle."

I think that's the gist of the issue. People want a $5 snack, not a $35 artisanal free-range organic pastry dining experience.

Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by bootload on Thursday October 13, 2016 @06:10PM (#12704504)
"People want a $5 snack, not a $35 artisanal free-range organic pastry dining experience."

My local pâtisserie doesn't charge 5$AUD for a whole range of pastry ~ https://flickr.com/photos/bootload/albums/72157622498559456

The high prices you quote come not from materials, display or worker pay, more probably property location and market they position themselves in.

Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by Swizec on Thursday October 13, 2016 @06:25PM (#12704626)
The point is that there's an upper bound for how much you can charge for a pastry. This induces an upper bound on how much you can spend to make it.

It doesn't matter how skill or how rare the worker is, if you can't sell their work for a higher price.

Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by chewxy on Thursday October 13, 2016 @06:15PM (#12704549)
The prices seem a bit low for 2016. A pastry shop I frequent (not really frequently given my family went low-carbish a few years ago) had their eclairs go from $4.50 to $8 in over the past 5-6 years. :S. Granted they also became a lot more famous.
Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by bootload on Thursday October 13, 2016 @08:52PM (#12705441)
"The prices seem a bit low for 2016."

there are dates on the various shots. Haven't noticed price increases since then. The shop is owned by French owners who grow the fruit/veg (sans exotic). Famous in my town.

Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by eli_gottlieb on Thursday October 13, 2016 @08:50PM (#12705434)
I have to agree with the user "douche" who also replied to you. Depending on where I've gone and how much of a baking culture the locality had, I've often had very cheap, very good food, especially vegetables and baked goods.

(Actually, I'm constantly frustrated that baked goods, especially bread, in the United States aren't made fresh and sold in bulk. The good life was five fluffy pitas, still warm from the oven, for about $2, shelved alongside sweet croissants and savory burekas selling for roughly $4/lb. By comparison, basically everything in America is just crap, especially when I'm paying for the $35 artisanal free-range organic crap.)

Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by douche on Thursday October 13, 2016 @07:06PM (#12704922)
I'm not sure that's the whole picture. For instance, in many European cities, I can get a better quality product for $5 at a corner shop than I can for $35 at some artisanal hipster place here in the States. It's one of the things I love about visiting Berlin; I've never eaten simultaneously so well and so cheaply.
Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by clock_tower on Thursday October 13, 2016 @07:28PM (#12705051)
To think that people yell at me when I say that the US's higher-than-Europe GDP doesn't mean that the US has a higher quality of life...
Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by jessaustin on Thursday October 13, 2016 @08:28PM (#12705350)
Haha yelling is a sign of confusion...
Re:Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? by clock_tower on Friday October 14, 2016 @01:22PM (#12709617)
Good point! People -- including people who should really know better, like government economists -- have been sold GDP as the economy's high score. (Think of Il Sorpasso, when Italy's GDP first passed England's.) It was never intended as more than a best guess, and is one of the many temporary measures for WWII that are still with us today...