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Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by danso on Monday October 03, 2016 @03:31PM (#12630561)
I admire the author's selflessness. At the same time, it seemed easier to be selfless as a teenager, probably for similar reasons for why it's easier to draft 18-year-olds than it is 28-year-olds. Given young persons willingness to sacrifice for the greater cause without realizing that life extends well past your 30s and 40s, I wonder if more shouldn't be done to let young donors think of the risks, so that their naïveté isn't something that the system takes advantage of.

The author's right to ask for better data and tracking of donors. That said, his current worries are likely to be heavily informed by selection bias:

> Five years after the surgery, when I was 23 and getting ready to go to medical school, I began working in a research lab that was looking at kidney donors who had gone on to develop kidney failure. For that research, I talked to more than 100 such donors. In some cases, the remaining kidneys failed; in others, the organ became injured or developed cancer. The more I learned, the more nervous I became about the logic of my decision at age 18 to donate.

If you spend a lot of time talking only to donors where things have gone wrong, yeah, you'll be paranoid. Reminds me of being a cops reporter in which you strongly associate certain neighborhoods with shootings and murders because, professionally, those incidents are the only times you ever visit those neighborhoods.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by criley2 on Monday October 03, 2016 @03:43PM (#12630664)
>At the same time, it seemed easier to be selfless as a teenager, probably for similar reasons for why it's easier to draft 18-year-olds than it is 28-year-olds. Given young persons willingness to sacrifice for the greater cause without realizing that life extends well past your 30s and 40s

I totally agree, the biological basis of this is Pre-frontal Cortex development.

"The [prefrontal cortex] isn't fully developed and won't be until the person is 25 years old or so." https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?Con...

"This brain region has been implicated in planning complex cognitive behavior, personality expression, decision making, and moderating social behaviour. The basic activity of this brain region is considered to be orchestration of thoughts and actions in accordance with internal goals." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex

I can't understand any other context for drafting 18 year olds other than taking advantage of their youth and incomplete development, but avoiding Presentism and the comfort of Mutually Assured Destruction / Pax Americana, I can understand why when the cards are on the table and your entire society is at risk, why you must call all hands, young and old, into Total War a la WW1 or WW2.

As far as donations go, that's got to be a morally gray area as well for all the reasons you mention.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by linkregister on Monday October 03, 2016 @04:03PM (#12630856)
> I can't understand any other context for drafting 18 year olds other than taking advantage of their youth and incomplete development

18-year-olds have been volunteer recruited and drafted for perhaps the entire history of organized armies. Child soldiers also have (and in some countries still are) enlisted also. I suspect this is only out of extreme necessity, as the moral and practical drawbacks are overwhelming.

When the United States has instituted the draft, it has encompassed 18-to-45 year-olds for immediate enlistment. 18-25 year-olds comprise the largest age group of new volunteer enlistees in the US. The largest barriers to military service qualification are health reasons and family situations. It would follow that younger enlistees would have lower likelihood of physical injuries and being the sole caretaker of a dependent.

Your post made sense until your bizarre digression to armed service being linked to incomplete prefrontal cortex development. It can be appealing to find sinister motivations behind institutions you dislike, but there isn't a basis in fact here. The explanation is tradition, health, and lack of obligations.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by M_Grey on Monday October 03, 2016 @04:07PM (#12630881)
It's hardly bizarre, but it's not put in terms of cortical development either. It is however a bit of, "Give me a girl at an impressionable age, and she will be mine for life."

Ignoring that reality, and why 12 year olds are more likely to pick up a machete than a 30 year old, is what's bizarre.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by linkregister on Monday October 03, 2016 @04:24PM (#12631014)
Is it true that 12 year olds are more likely to pick up a machete than 30 year olds?
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by frandroid on Monday October 03, 2016 @05:09PM (#12631344)
Well, trigger warning: discussion of child soldier recruitment, and deadly violence.

Recruitment of child soldiers usually involves drugging the targets. 12 year olds are probably less susceptible to be able to realize that they're being drugged and to have the mental fortitude to retain their self through the grooming process. I suspect that even when drugged, a 30 year old will have a better sense of being drugged and is less likely to be brainwashed. There are also other shock-inducing factors that have a greater dislocating impact on 12 year olds, such as killing their parents (both it happening in front of them, and/or in some cases, them being forced to do it as part of the indoctrination process). I suspect that a 30 year old would be more likely to channel their anger at the "recruiter" than a 12 year old would.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by infinite8s on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @06:36AM (#12634512)
That is atrocious. Do you have any citations to back those up?
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by sidlls on Monday October 03, 2016 @04:37PM (#12631101)
Humans are beastly, violent primates with marginal cognitive advantages over our cousins. Empathy is learned. I don't know if a 12 year old is more likely to kill than a 30 year old, but the former certainly has had much less social normalization toward empathy than the older one, other things being equal.

Also kids are easily guided to do just about anything. They're easily impressed and even the brightest lack the experience to temper their judgement of what is a good idea versus what isn't.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by djtriptych on Monday October 03, 2016 @05:18PM (#12631418)
No, healthy people are born with empathy. Which is why childhood animal mutilation is a standard test for sociopathy.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by sidlls on Monday October 03, 2016 @05:36PM (#12631548)
No, healthy people learn empathy, they aren't born being empathetic. They should learn it very early, and certainly should demonstrate some empathy by the time pre-K rolls around.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by sqeaky on Monday October 03, 2016 @06:37PM (#12631945)
This back and forth sounds a great deal like "NO U" being shouted on 4chan.

Are there any sources, papers or studies indicating whether it is learned, innate or both?

Sources and empiricism are what we should be resorting to, not down-votes.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by M_Grey on Monday October 03, 2016 @07:14PM (#12632152)
You're not going to find a lot of people jumping through that hoop, given that 5 seconds with Google is all that it takes. This isn't some controversial developmental theory, and this isn't a formal debate.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by sqeaky on Monday October 03, 2016 @08:55PM (#12632600)
I am not taking sides. I may even have done some reading up already, but I want to remain neutral.

I want to know why the people going back and forth think one way or the other. If I rely on my own research I might not get the nuance that a psychologist or other person with a vested interest would be able to share.

There seems a great deal smoke but no light in this discussion. This is uncommon here on hacker news, normally sources are appreciated and I frequently see them brought in well before an argument begins, even on extremely casual topics. They often earn an few upvotes too.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by M_Grey on Monday October 03, 2016 @09:12PM (#12632660)
Then shed some light on it, don't spend a handful of posts complaining about it while cryptically suggesting the value of your own neutrality and what you might or might not know. Again, this isn't a controversial topic, and just a case of one poster who didn't seem to know about the topic in general, as indicated by believing that one aspect of the Macdonald triad being diagnostic for a child.

So again, if you want to add to the discussion, add to it, don't try to control it.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by mcguire on Monday October 03, 2016 @09:36PM (#12632739)
As a general rule, in scientific circles anyway, the person making an assertion is the one who gets to support it. Asking "Why do you believe that?" is always valid.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by Retric on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @01:08AM (#12633453)
[citation needed], people generally need to pass a crank test or be ignored as not worth the effort of speaking to.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by sqeaky on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @12:42PM (#12636837)
In this context someone explaining themselves would be nice, even without citations (they would be nice though). Instead I was getting downvotes for asking "why" just with a few more words.

At the moment there is no reason to believe either side and plenty of reasons to dismiss both, not as cranks, but at least as cranky.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by Retric on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @05:02PM (#12639453)
/I assume the thread is dead so..

Complaining on a form inherently lowers it's quality. As a rule Down-vote, Flag, or say nothing don't clutter up HN with posts that make for poor reading.

And yes, mass downvoting both sides of a thread is often better than getting in the middle of a heated debate.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by M_Grey on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @07:49PM (#12640592)
Given that this is your response, and you've chosen not to shed some light on the subject yourself, the options left to describe your motives are not positive.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by M_Grey on Monday October 03, 2016 @10:01PM (#12632826)
That question was asked, and answered by several people. "Why do you think that?" and "You haven't cited to my satisfaction, although I've done my research... which I'm not sharing for... reasons..." isn't the same thing at all.

Lets not pretend that it is.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by sqeaky on Monday October 03, 2016 @07:05PM (#12632103)
A down-vote instead of a link, I don't know what I expected.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by djtriptych on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @07:10PM (#12640395)
It's a complex emotion, and we don't have good tests to measure any but the most basic emotions in infants. But we do have good indicators that 12 month old babies show empathy.

As well as dogs. Dogs have empathy, even for humans.

So yeah, the idea that an 18 year old is struggling with an emotion that babies and dogs don't have much trouble with is a silly proclamation IMO.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by M_Grey on Monday October 03, 2016 @05:36PM (#12631549)
It's not a test, it's not diagnostic, it's part of a hypothetical triad of indicators, in the context of an adult's childhood history. You can't even diagnose a child as antisocial, at best you'd have "Conduct Disorder".
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by dragonwriter on Monday October 03, 2016 @05:24PM (#12631467)
> No, healthy people are born with empathy.

Most of the reading I've done seems to suggest that that's something that's developed at a very young age, and very sensitive to early childhood environment, rather something people are born with.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by djtriptych on Monday October 03, 2016 @05:34PM (#12631533)
It's a normal part of childhood development. The original comment suggests that hate is inborn and empathy is learned - no real evidence for that.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by Retric on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @01:11AM (#12633457)
Empathy is a far more complex emotion.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by djtriptych on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:30PM (#12662372)
Dogs have empathy.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by M_Grey on Monday October 03, 2016 @04:34PM (#12631082)
In a general context, or in the context of what we're talking about here? In general, I don't know, in context... yes. You can get most kids on board with almost anything, and those you can't, you can generally abuse or otherwise force to submit. They're not set in their ways, they don't have as clear a sense of the world, and their impulse control usually stinks.

There's a reason that everyone, for better or worse, wants to get to kids early, and often. Advertisers, religions, people trying to teach kids how to deal with advertisers and religions, militaries, etc... all see the value in "getting them young."

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by louprado on Monday October 03, 2016 @04:44PM (#12631153)
Personally, I am less likely to take risks as I age because I have invested more in myself over time. It seems natural to value that which you have dedicated money, time, and effort. Before adulthood that investment came primarily from my mother and she valued my life waaaaay more than I did.

I get that this is a dissociative POV.

So often these discussions are about youthful feelings of immortality, more courage, foolishness, etc., but that never rang true personally.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by vintermann on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @06:00AM (#12634393)
> Personally, I am less likely to take risks as I age because I have invested more in myself over time. It seems natural to value that which you have dedicated money, time, and effort.

No no. Prefrontal cortex development. Who needs an entirely plausible rational explanation when you can point to mysterious and poorly understood brain-physical reasons?

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by cafard on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @05:42AM (#12634330)
Drafting 18-year-olds: well, they are less likely to have employment in strategically important industries, they are less likely to be supporting a family, and they are seldom in mid-college, i.e. to be held aside for a commission upon graduation. Those, that I can think of, were the three big sources of deferment in the WW II draft.

They are also approaching peak physical fitness, both as to capacity for difficult physical work, and to the ability to recover from severe trauma.

[Edit: one should probably not exaggerate the idealism of draftees. Maybe it was there in WW I, but the accounts of WW II and since suggest that it fell off.]

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by chrisseaton on Monday October 03, 2016 @06:17PM (#12631825)
> I can't understand any other context for drafting 18 year olds other than taking advantage of their youth and incomplete development

Physical fitness surely? Isn't 18 or 19 around the physical fitness peak? I'm guessing that people are on average are significantly stronger and more robust at 18 than they are at 28. I think the British Army has 26 as the limit for joining in the first place for officers at least.

Also people are married by 28. At 18 they're generally single and more able to deploy.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by vacri on Monday October 03, 2016 @07:06PM (#12632105)
18-year-olds are also inexperienced in the travails of supporting yourself in life, and as a result of this, are much easier to sway with ideals rather than pragmatics.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by vidarh on Monday October 03, 2016 @08:27PM (#12632482)
It may be that it takes less effort to get you to sufficient fitness at that age, but it's nowhere near your peak. Unless you follow an elite athlete training program, it'll take you well over a decade of exercise to max out your potential. E.g. for muscle strength, most peoples bodies simply isn't capable of synthesising muscle fast enough in even a decade to max out your potential unless you use performance enhancing drugs.

You may have a point about average fitness and rate of improvement, though.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by TheDrizzle43 on Monday October 03, 2016 @08:00PM (#12632368)
Based on my cursory research men peak physically in their mid to late 20's.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by tajen on Monday October 03, 2016 @07:08PM (#12632121)
I'd say the peak strength must be 22-26, because 18-years-olds are really thin and lean (source: I love men ;)) – unless they've been practising musculation, but once again, if they practice musculation at 24, they'll be much bigger. But it takes well above 2 years to train a professional, so profesional recruitment takes them earlier. However, concerning draft followed by almost-immediate use on the battlefield, given this subjective data, it makes little sense to me, physically, to draft them so young.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by doikor on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @04:22AM (#12634051)
It kinda depends on what kind of strength. For things where the athlete is rather lightweight/small and does some kind of fast/twitchy power moves you peak out somewhere before 30. But when all you need is pure strenght you have 30 to 40 year old world champions in many sports (you still have to start training when a lot younger to make it though) for example in power lifting where you have a lot of todays world champions born in the late 70s/early 80s.

One of the advantages (and disadvantages) of sending 18-20 year olds into battlefield is that if they die society spent less money/effort into teaching them some other valuable skill that would have been lost without getting the benefit out of it (due to the person being dead)

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by jsprogrammer on Monday October 03, 2016 @04:24PM (#12631015)
Are shootings and murder common in all neighborhoods? Isn't it correct to strongly associate a neighborhood with shootings and murder if you are repeatedly visiting the neighborhood due to a shooting and/or murder?
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by ellyagg on Monday October 03, 2016 @08:17PM (#12632446)
Yes, despite that you are grayed at this point, that example is not logically the same as the phenomenon under discussion.

If you talk to a lot of people with kidney failure you might conclude kidney failure is more likely than it is. This makes no sense as you are specifically looking for people with kidney failure, but humans aren't great at perspective here.

If you are looking for murder victims and a separate attribute--where these murders take place--is clearly correlated with murder victims, it is correct to notice that correlation.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by danso on Monday October 03, 2016 @04:37PM (#12631105)
You can say that a neighborhood has more shootings/murders than other neighborhoods. What I'm talking about is the phenomenon of thinking of that neighborhood just in terms of those incidents, because that's all you ever hear about them. You aren't there for the 99.9% of the time when things are mundane.
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by pavel_lishin on Monday October 03, 2016 @04:22PM (#12630992)
I've considered offering to be a kidney donor. Now that I have a kid, I'm glad I didn't - what if my kid needs it? What if my wife does?
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by nothrabannosir on Monday October 03, 2016 @06:16PM (#12631812)
Do you not get a "+1" for anyone of your choosing at any point in time if you donated to a stranger in the past?
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by chrisseaton on Monday October 03, 2016 @06:19PM (#12631832)
How could they guarantee that? What if you need to call that right in and they can't find anyone compatible?
Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by nothrabannosir on Monday October 03, 2016 @06:26PM (#12631884)
There's kidneys, just not for you if you're at the bottom of the list.

Compare to kidney exchange (http://transplants.ucla.edu/site.cfm?id=112): if your friend or spouse needs one, but you're incompatible, you can find another pair who has the inverse compatibility problem and swap with them. Or more, and form a chain (e.g. this 35-kidney chain: http://abc27.com/2015/03/30/paired-exchange-record-70-people...).

What I was referring to is Good Samaritan donation:

Many Good Samaritan donors choose to start chains because it is a way to help more than one person suffering from kidney failure. One chain typically facilitates anywhere from 2 to 30 transplants. The NKR pays for donation insurance for all Good Samaritan donor who start chains through NKR.

http://www.kidneyregistry.org/living_donors.php?cookie=1

EDIT: Ah, found it---they're called Kidney Vouchers :) http://transplants.ucla.edu/site.cfm?id=406 great name. Although limited to one predetermined person, so not exactly a blanket "+1".

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by pavel_lishin on Monday October 03, 2016 @10:30PM (#12632932)
It still seems like it's an exchange, just not an immediate one.

Still, all of those things are excellent ideas.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by plan6 on Monday October 03, 2016 @09:25PM (#12632702)
> I admire the author's selflessness.

But if he is publicly regretting donating a kidney, won't he be preventing many kidneys from being donated?

I just don't him going public with his opinion as a good thing. It may become something he regrets even more than his kidney donation.

Even the reporter and the post's title is irresponsible. If I were just reading through the headlines, it would influence my feelings about donating a kidney.

Instead, the title could have been "Kidney-donating doc pleads: please register as an organ donor" and have similar content in the post, but with the main point being that people should register to be an organ donor if they die.

Re:A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it by kelnos on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @12:00AM (#12633256)
Maybe it should influence you. From what it sounds like, he was essentially misled as to how unlikely it is that he could suffer complications down the road. If you (or anyone else) is less likely to donate because of that, perhaps that's a good thing. Not good for the potential recipient, perhaps, but good for you, which is just as important.