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Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by XCSme on Friday September 30, 2016 @03:04PM (#12614544)
When you said "reversed" I thought about it being a porn-generative neural network. Just enter your favorite keywords and an unique, tailored to your needs scene will be generated just for you!
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by zardo on Friday September 30, 2016 @03:16PM (#12614610)
As long as what you need is a nightmarish version of the requested scene.

What happens here with generating illegal content? If you put a public text->image gan up, and someone uses it to generate child porn, are you responsible?

How could you make sure it couldn't?

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by imh on Friday September 30, 2016 @07:48PM (#12615899)
I was wondering about illegal content in a totally different sense. I know from personal experience that overfitted generative models end up just memorizing the data set you trained it on. Say I overfit a model on Shakespeare, and you ask it to generate Shakespeare-like sonnets. It will do a fantastic job because it will just spit out one of his sonnets verbatim. Claiming that my network wrote it is ludicrous. The line is fuzzy where it's not overfitting and starts to generate its own content. For what you're talking about, if your model learns entirely from other people's movies, at what point is it not just a super weird codec for those people's IP?
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by BinaryIdiot on Friday September 30, 2016 @03:24PM (#12614657)
I would imagine if you're generating then no real people were part of its creation therefore it would be legal. If I remember correctly cartoons of children having sex is not illegal (in the United States as far as I know).

Though that then raises the question: when happens when it can be generated so realistically that it looks indistinguishable from the real thing? Would it still be treated like cartoons? How could you prove one way or the other? Lots of questions here.

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by daturkel on Friday September 30, 2016 @03:33PM (#12614709)
In the USA:

Provisions against simulated child pornography were found to be unconstitutional in Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition [0] in 2002.

From wiki [1]:

> Referring to [New York v. Ferber, 1982: child pornography is not protected speech], the court stated that "the CPPA prohibits speech that records no crime and creates no victims by its production. Virtual child pornography is not 'intrinsically related' to the sexual abuse of children".

IANAL, but following that logic alone, the degree of realism doesn't seem to be relevant to the legal precedent insofar as photorealistic imagery would still "record no crime" nor "create victims by its production." As to whether it's dangerous for such material to exist because it would create plausible deniability for the production of actual photography while claiming it's simulated...I guess that would be a different matter.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashcroft_v._Free_Speech_Coalit...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_the_...

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by voxic11 on Friday September 30, 2016 @03:46PM (#12614791)
They actually fixed this with the 2003 PROTECT act which only makes obscene simulated child pornography illegal. Because obscenity isn't protected by the first amendment this has been found to be constitutional.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by justinlardinois on Friday September 30, 2016 @04:42PM (#12615163)
It's hard to say that changed anything. Obscenity is a notoriously thorny subject in American constitutional law. The legal test for determining obscenity[0] is highly subjective and in the context of the internet very difficult to apply.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by Normal_gaussian on Friday September 30, 2016 @05:03PM (#12615275)
Highlights from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test

The test:

* Whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards", would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,

* Whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions specifically defined by applicable state law,

* Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.

Also:

Critics of obscenity law argue that defining what is obscene is paradoxical, arbitrary, and subjective.

---

I think it would be hard to not find generated child porn obscene by this test, unless you have a good lawyer, at which point there is plenty of wiggle room.

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by justinlardinois on Friday September 30, 2016 @06:00PM (#12615527)
I think the technical feats involved in creating such a text-to-image program might allow a talented laywer to make an argument for scientific value.

There's also the issue that "contemporary community standards" are hard to determine, because what community you're talking about is hard to determine.

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by yomly on Friday September 30, 2016 @06:10PM (#12615556)
While no one was harmed in the direct creation of a generated video, can it not be argued that in order to train such a generative engine, it is highly likely that harm-inducing content was produced/consumed at some stage?

Where does the harm boundary lie? Is harm inflicted if an inanimate object is the only thing consuming the content? Is a generated video borne from harmful content an interest payment on your harm-capital?

Meta, but interesting I wonder whether this train of thought would hold in a court of law...

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by voxic11 on Friday September 30, 2016 @03:31PM (#12614693)
In the United States under the 2003 PROTECT act they are actually illegal but only if they are "obscene" as obscene speech is not protected by the first Amendment.

>Prohibits drawings, sculptures, and pictures of such drawings and sculptures depicting minors in actions or situations that meet the Miller test of being obscene, OR are engaged in sex acts that are deemed to meet the same obscene condition. The law does not explicitly state that images of fictional beings who appear to be under 18 engaged in sexual acts that are not deemed to be obscene are rendered illegal in and of their own condition (illustration of sex of fictional minors). Maximum sentence of 5 years for possession, 10 years for distribution.

Interestingly the same act does make all computer generated child pornography which is "virtually indistinguishable from that of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct" with no requirement that it be obscene, I don't think that has been tested in court yet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROTECT_Act_of_2003

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by barnacles67 on Saturday October 01, 2016 @03:23AM (#12616886)
Maybe today it's legal (or not?) but that's only because generating realistic porn is not possible yet. Does anyone really think that in today's American society so afraid of sex that this would remain legal? Consider the following situation:

Imagine we're 200 years into the future and nothing much has changed with respect to attitudes about sex, freedom of speech, technology, etc. All images available 200 years ago are still there on the internet to download, including illegal child porn. If you are downloading 200+ year old child porn, where everyone depicted is long dead, how could anyone be harmed by you viewing those images? Yet I cannot imagine anyone successfully using that defense if caught with those images.

It's not about who is being harmed by these images (if anyone), it's more about society hating pedophilia and going after it wherever possible, free speech be damned.

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by mehwoot on Saturday October 01, 2016 @04:28AM (#12617030)
how could anyone be harmed by you viewing those images?

I think the argument is that pedophiles view existing media and it encourages them to do things to real people.

The same reason why excessively violent movies are not considered acceptable for children- it's not out of concern for the people in the movies, it's the effect it will have on the person viewing it.

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by barnacles67 on Saturday October 01, 2016 @10:04AM (#12617888)
By that logic rape porn should be illegal too. And many movies and video games of realistic violence / gore.

And that may be part of the argument, but I think the official position of the justice department is that each time a child porn image is viewed, additional harm is inflicted upon the victim in the image.

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by mehwoot on Saturday October 01, 2016 @08:21PM (#12620491)
Well I think many people would want those things to be illegal too. Censorship laws are not necessarily logically consistent, nor are they black and white. Changing these laws will always be contentious.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by J-dawg on Friday September 30, 2016 @03:37PM (#12614738)
Here in Airstrip One, cartoons of children may be illegal.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fan-japanese-anime-make...

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by ue_ on Saturday October 01, 2016 @07:13AM (#12617382)
I've spoken about this many times, and I'll say it again - it's a horrible violation of freedom of speech and expression to not be allowed to possess or create certain drawings.

There is no law that sickens me more than the one that criminalises drawings. It angers me far more than even modern copyright law.

And the worst part is that nobody seems to care about it, even those who are libertarians in the UK who I've met are overcome with repulsion at the type of speech or expression, not caring for the violation of rights.

It's a horrible law backed by no evidence of harm caused, and I think it is truly truly wrong that people ignore it. I am not exaggerating when I say that the principle is a motivating factor for me to leave the UK

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by J-dawg on Monday October 03, 2016 @10:24AM (#12627615)
I didn't see that anyone had replied to my post until now. HN could really do with an inbox feature!

I just wanted to say that I agree 100%. The UK's laws on obscenity and freedom of speech in general are a terrifying mess.

You can be arrested and convicted for as little as wearing a t-shirt with an offensive slogan. [0]

How do we define offensive? Well, nobody really knows. It basically depends on the magistrate or jury you find yourself in front of.

When I discuss cases like this with people, they often say something along the lines of "but how can you defend this person... what they said was racist/homophobic/obscene/insulting to the dead etc". How many times will I have to explain, I'm not defending the person or their opinions, I'm defending the principle of freedom of speech.

Nobody is willing to stand up for a cartoonist who draws creepy pictures, or a football fan with a terrible sense of humour. But really we should all be protesting in the streets over this stuff.

How long before your t-shirt is deemed offensive? Or something you wrote? Or something you drew?

Just like with the cartoons, there is zero evidence of harm caused. Just innocent people persecuted with no justification.

[0] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-3674...

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by ue_ on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @12:30PM (#12636715)
I agree, and in my opinion it's a sort of climb further and further down in which people decide what is offensive and not, what is acceptable or not, and they don't require evidence for it - they just legislate the problems. And it's not rare that it's done by the people who have good intentions. They want society to run smoothly and nicely - but by trying to ensure that with law, we lose individual liberties.

I've noticed that people think of speech in the same way as "you should be allowed to say that" or "you shouldn't be allowed to say this" rather than in the way of "you should be allowed to speak" or "you shouldn't be allowed to speak". This kind of "particular" reasoning leads to examining the contents of speech rather than simply the right.

A magistrate who ruled in a case about the cartoons I mentioned mentioned that "society has no need for these materials", or words to that effect. This really proves my point about taking society's use for something over the individual. Most laws usually considered to be unjust we find are related to protecting people from themselves or inadequate consideration for personal liberty.

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by notyourwork on Friday September 30, 2016 @05:42PM (#12615436)
I don't think there are that many questions really. The answers already exist like you mention. If its not real and its generated/created content it isn't illegal. This is the same as why you have all the crazy asian animated adult content.

The only question needing answered is: What is considered real?

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by DrStalker on Friday September 30, 2016 @10:01PM (#12616244)
Consult a lawyer first; in some parts of the world constructed images of child pornography are illegal, covering both drawn child pornography and photo-manipulation where a child's head is pasted on to a young-looking but legal woman's body.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by zardo on Friday September 30, 2016 @05:09PM (#12615312)
>How could you make sure it couldn't?

I just realized the answer to this is pretty obvious, you could have a network trained to classify child pornography and use it to censor the output.

Getting the training set would be an issue, you would probably have to work with law enforcement to do it.

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by WhitneyLand on Friday September 30, 2016 @05:50PM (#12615479)
Impossible. There is no accurate way to determine age by external appearance. For example a 15 year could look older than an 18 year old.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by DrStalker on Friday September 30, 2016 @10:08PM (#12616251)
That doesn't stop law makers from trying. Like the mess over small-breasted porn being banned in Australia in 2010:

> While the ACB claims that there is no blanket ban on small breasts as such, women over the age of 18 with small breasts who might look young ARE banned.

http://www.inquisitr.com/59633/australian-government-censor-...

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by girvo on Saturday October 01, 2016 @12:16AM (#12616491)
Yeah but Australia doesn't really have protected speech per se. Different legal system.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by erklik on Saturday October 01, 2016 @09:45AM (#12617807)
Australia doesn't technically have "freedom of speech" as America or other countries may have.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by zardo on Friday September 30, 2016 @06:00PM (#12615528)
If it's being generated no characters actually have an age.

Any that are plausibly adults would presumably be legally in the clear.

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by gcr on Saturday October 01, 2016 @12:12PM (#12618459)
Incidentally, that's almost exactly how generative adversarial networks work.

To generate realistic images, you make two neural networks: one of them (D) takes an image as input and decides whether it's real or whether it's the output of (G). The other (G) takes random noise as input and turns it into an image that will fool the (D) network.

Make them fight until they both get strong, and then use (G) as the final model.

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by NickNameNick on Friday September 30, 2016 @05:17PM (#12615339)
Surely you would just filter on the input?
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by zardo on Friday September 30, 2016 @05:27PM (#12615374)
Maybe, it seems like there might be ways to work around an input filter though.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by artursapek on Friday September 30, 2016 @03:34PM (#12614716)
Would computer generated child porn be illegal? No children are harmed in its creation.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by gizmo686 on Friday September 30, 2016 @03:42PM (#12614767)
No

" (8) “child pornography” means any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic, mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit conduct, where— (A) the production of such visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; (B) such visual depiction is a digital image, computer image, or computer-generated image that is, or is indistinguishable from, that of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; or (C) such visual depiction has been created, adapted, or modified to appear that an identifiable minor is engaging in sexually explicit conduct.

...

(11) the term “indistinguishable” used with respect to a depiction, means virtually indistinguishable, in that the depiction is such that an ordinary person viewing the depiction would conclude that the depiction is of an actual minor engaged in sexually explicit conduct. This definition does not apply to depictions that are drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings depicting minors or adults. "

In theory, you could argue that the network was trained on child porn, and as such anything produced by it involved the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; but I can't imagine a court actually buying that arguement.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2256

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by WhitneyLand on Friday September 30, 2016 @05:53PM (#12615496)
Damn it this is serious stuff. Please cease in dispensing incorrect legal opinions.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by gozur88 on Friday September 30, 2016 @08:35PM (#12616023)
Wouldn't that make it illegal under 8B?
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by gizmo686 on Friday September 30, 2016 @10:24PM (#12616293)
Sufficiently realistic digital child porn would be prohibited under 8B. The original context of this conversation was neural net generated images, so I had not considered the case of photorealistic images. Those would be a violation of 8B (if they are of sufficient quality).

Having said that the segment I quoted is only the definition of child porn. The law prohibiting child porn [0, section c2] provides that:

"It shall be an affirmative defense to a charge of violating paragraph (1), (2), (3)(A), (4), or (5) of subsection (a) that— ...

the alleged child pornography was not produced using any actual minor or minors. No affirmative defense under subsection (c)(2) shall be available in any prosecution that involves child pornography as described in section 2256(8)(C)"

It is worth mentioning the segments of section A that are excluded from this defence:

Section 3B prohibts the advertisement/distribution/solicitation/etc of of material that is claimed to contain (i) "an obscene visual depiction of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; or (ii) a visual depiction of an actual minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;"

The relevant part of this is (i), where you would need to parse out the definition of "obscene" and "minor". Section 2256 defines minor as "any person under the age of eighteen years", however the courts would probably read it in this context in contrast to the phrase "actual minor". I could not fine the definition of "obscene" or "actual minor". Talk to a lawyer.

Section 6 relates to prohibits providing child porn to a minor.

Section 7 requires a depiction of an identifiable minor.

[0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2252A

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by pbhjpbhj on Saturday October 01, 2016 @06:25AM (#12617281)
Based on what you quoted up-thread a fictional depiction of an identifiable minor would be considered child-pornography too.

Moreover in the above quote it seems it could be considered "using" to use the visual identity of a minor.

I'd imagine that meant it you used any reference image of faces for your neural net there's a chance of violating the "letter" of this provision.

This of course if not legal advice.

Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by snowwrestler on Friday September 30, 2016 @03:38PM (#12614741)
Yes. Whether that is a good idea should probably not be debated here, as it will lead to a 500-comment subthread.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by artursapek on Friday September 30, 2016 @04:10PM (#12614985)
Who doesn't love a 500-comment subthread?!
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by w__m on Friday September 30, 2016 @04:18PM (#12615036)
But many can be harmed because of its creation, exposure to it etc.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by Houshalter on Friday September 30, 2016 @06:47PM (#12615704)
This has been done, sort of. NSFW: http://deepdickdreams.tumblr.com/
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by pault on Saturday October 01, 2016 @11:26AM (#12618236)
Someone tell H.R. Giger his job has been automated.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by flurpitude on Friday September 30, 2016 @03:50PM (#12614831)
It would be interesting to see the "deep dream" treatment of ordinary images using this neural net.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by knicholes on Friday September 30, 2016 @04:35PM (#12615128)
I've been looking for balance in the universe after VidAngel requires filtering of obscenity. I want to run videos through a neural network to add obscenity and nudity.
Re:Open Sourcing a Deep Learning Solution for Detecting NSFW... by netsharc on Saturday October 01, 2016 @02:53AM (#12616815)
That'll be the killer app of Augmented Reality, "see-through" glasses.

"Ok glass, undress her.".