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Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by Animats on Thursday September 22, 2016 @05:23PM (#12560481)
This is a mess because Hanjin's top management was in denial about the possibility of bankruptcy. Just like the typical startup. They've been trying for months to get a bailout deal from somebody, anybody - a merger, loans, their parent chaebol, their stockholders (Korean Air is the largest), or the S. Korean government. Everybody turned them down. There's too much container ship capacity right now; nobody needed Hanjin's fleet.

Management didn't have a plan for an orderly shutdown, so when the company went into receivership, everything just stopped. Just like many failing startups, the web site continued to indicate nothing was wrong. They've now put up a spreadsheet with current vessel status, but that took weeks. The status has entries such as "Arrested", "Unpaid Canal Fee (Suez)", "Arrested by Bunker Supply Co. (Panama Canal)", and "Port labor rejected" (they're way behind on their payments)". There are about 500,000 containers stuck with Hanjin.

Admiralty law is especially harsh on bankrupt shipowners. In many jurisdictions, ships can be seized regardless of bankruptcy status. Some Hanjin ships have been seized. Some are waiting offshore until somebody puts up the money for unloading and refueling. There were four stuck off the coast of California. Hanjin has come up with enough money to get two of them into the port of Los Angeles and unloaded. Those appear to be ships Hanjin leased, rather than owned, and a court in Korea has told them to unload and return all their leased ships ASAP. Courts in about 15 countries are involved, trying to untangle this mess. The US Maritime Commission is trying to get cargoes unloaded, but they don't have much authority. Ports are unwilling to let Hanjin ships in unless they have enough money to fuel up, pay a crew, and leave - they don't want them stuck at their docks. Meanwhile, some of the ships are running low on food and water.

Then there's the empty container mess. In the container business, you pay a per-day fee when you hold someone else's container, so everyone tries to return their borrowed empties quickly. But most of Hanjin's empty container return points are shut down, and are not taking empties back. Many of those empties are on trailer bodies, and are tying up trailers needed to move freight. Truckers are angry about this. Shippers are having trouble getting enough empty trailers.

This will all get unwound, but it's going to take weeks or months. There are going to be really big post-Xmas sales as the delayed cargo is unloaded.

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by johan_larson on Thursday September 22, 2016 @06:30PM (#12560877)
> This is a mess because Hanjin's top management was in denial about the possibility of bankruptcy. Just like the typical startup.

Just like pretty much anybody. Everyone keeps hoping against hope, everyone is afraid to show weakness, and nobody likes to tell the boss no. Typically the staff knows for months that the end is nigh until some minor event precipitates the final undeniable crisis.

Megan McArdle has some interesting things to say about this in her book "The Up Side of Down." Chapter 5 is about handling crises (in general) and the GM failure (in particular).

"Wagoner [the head of GM] seemed to believe that by not admitting GM might declare bankruptcy, he could somehow keep it from happening. What he thought would take place when the company ran out of cash is not clear. Nor is it clear why his executives and his board of directors nodded and said 'Yes, Rick' rather than insisting that he confront reality. Instead, they helped him sustain his delusion by formulating a mad plan to merge with Chrysler, as if strapping together two nearly bankrupt auto firms would somehow make both of them solvent."

https://www.amazon.com/Up-Side-Down-Failing-Success/dp/01431...

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by ninja-wannabe-7 on Friday September 23, 2016 @02:41AM (#12562751)
Tulip-bulb, gold rush, hockeystick optimism when reality moves more like bounded diff equ's with a carrying capacity or an impulsive arc overshooting sustainability, not Malthusian exponentials forever on magic rainbows.
Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by Animats on Friday September 23, 2016 @02:40PM (#12566951)
Yet when GM did go bankrupt in 2009, GM Legal did a great job of doing it, at least from GM's perspective. They had a prepackaged bankruptcy ready to go. They made it happen in NYC, not Detroit, by using some GM dealership in Manhattan as the base. They had a contract they forced on suppliers to keep parts flowing. (GM's terms were very tough; they didn't want to pay pre-bankruptcy debts or pay for custom tooling made but not paid for, but demanded suppliers keep shipping to them post-bankruptcy on extended payment terms.) That got them through the first few weeks without shutting down the business. Then there was a major downsizing; all the bad stuff went to Motors Liquidation Corp., and the new GM Company kept the good stuff.

Hanjin just stopped in place for weeks. No plan.

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by woodandsteel on Thursday September 22, 2016 @08:01PM (#12561364)
This is one thing I love about HN. Whenever there is something big going on in some industry, there will be people posting comments here who work in the industry and will explain what is happening, and usually in very clear terms.

I guess this is because every big industry runs on commuters nowadays, so there are all these people who both are in the industry and read HN.

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by dredmorbius on Friday September 23, 2016 @06:24AM (#12563507)
NB: Animats is intelligent and quite knowledgable. I'm not aware that he's worked in shipping. Well, unless you count ballistic orbital delivery.
Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by ChristianGeek on Friday September 23, 2016 @11:00AM (#12565103)
>I guess this is because every big industry runs on commuters nowadays...

My favorite typo of the week!

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by superuser2 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:55PM (#12561343)
What happens to the crews of these ships? Can they leave? How? Who pays to transport them to shore? Under what authority are they permitted to walk on shore?

Office and factory workers of a suddenly-derelict company can walk off the premises and go home. Imagine finding out that not only will the paychecks stop, you also can't leave your desk.

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by chiph on Thursday September 22, 2016 @09:18PM (#12561659)
There is the occasional ship stranded in Charleston SC and there are local church groups who will put together a food & supply boat to go out there for the crews. They can't leave the ship as they don't have visas. USCIS doesn't really want them to anyway, as there's no guarantee they'll return to the ship or their home country.
Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by amazon_not on Saturday September 24, 2016 @06:31AM (#12570368)
> They can't leave the ship as they don't have visas. What's to stop them? Can't they take a life boat, head for shore, get arrested for illegal entry and get deported home?

Obviously not ideal, but at least you get fed and eventually get back home.

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by PeterisP on Friday September 23, 2016 @03:49AM (#12562997)
They may have problems in leaving, but that's not as big issue because they generally anyway had been contracted to stay there for many more months.

On the other hand, unlike factory workers in a totally bankrupt organization, the ship crews will get paid - they get "priority" on the ship and cargo; if the ship gets sold in some auction or restructuring, the new owner can't take possession until the previous crew gets paid.

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by pbhjpbhj on Friday September 23, 2016 @09:19AM (#12564332)
I think lack of basic supplies, and wages, now isn't really remedied by getting a share of monies from a sale at some point in the far future.

1: "I need water"

2: "Don't worry, next year you'll (probably) have enough money to buy some"

Surely there are international agreements with remedies for such situations? When do the coastguard step in and save the crew from dehydration/starvation?

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by swehner on Thursday September 22, 2016 @08:40PM (#12561516)
Doesn't look good for them. See http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-06/hanjin-s-g...

But am not aware of reports about how things are for them this week.

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by aninhumer on Friday September 23, 2016 @03:06AM (#12562852)
I don't know that much about accounting, but isn't this the exact kind of situation insurance is supposed to smooth over?

I'd imagine in many cases, the cost of solving the problems caused by not being able to pay fees is going to be higher than the fees themselves. So are there not insurers who benefit from paying these fees, rather than paying out larger claims later?

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by lmm on Friday September 23, 2016 @06:06AM (#12563453)
It's a classic tragedy of the commons. If all their creditors let them unload in an orderly fashion, they'll get a better return on what they're owed (making a complete guess at some numbers, maybe 30% instead of 20%). But if one creditor can sieze a ship they might be able to get back 100% of what they were owed, and screw the other guys.

The way this is supposed to be solved is bankruptcy protection; no-one can claim their specific debts, the administrator will figure out the best way to get as much money as possible and distribute it equally. I suspect the problems in this case are mostly caused by the international aspect: Korea may recognize a bankruptcy but that doesn't necessarily mean all the ports around the world do. I'd guess that international bankruptcies are probably rare enough that the system hasn't really been ironed out yet.

I'm not sure where insurance comes into it?

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by joe_the_user on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:46PM (#12561295)
>Management didn't have a plan for an orderly shutdown, so when the company went into receivership

The structure of present day shipping implies there could not be an orderly shutdown.

Continuously moving modern freight is akin to a bank. Any efforts to quickly "wind-down" the operation leads to a shortfall in cash, accelerating the bankruptcy process rather than stopping.

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by nickff on Thursday September 22, 2016 @09:56PM (#12561804)
Maybe they knew things were going to end badly, and hoped that making sure they were not organized for bankruptcy could get them bailed out. This could be a result of the bank bailouts.
Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by rcthompson on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:17PM (#12561138)
> This will all get unwound, but it's going to take weeks or months.

Does "this" just refer to Hanjin's mess, or does it also include the possibility, described in the OP, of several other shipping companies also going under?

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by wehadfun on Thursday September 22, 2016 @05:26PM (#12560502)
What does this "Arrested by Bunker Supply Co. (Panama Canal) mean?
Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by dragonwriter on Thursday September 22, 2016 @05:32PM (#12560530)
"Arrested" in this case means, from what I can tell, "seized by authorities on behalf of a creditor based on a lien filed against the ship by the creditor". See, e.g., http://www.presstelegram.com/business/20160907/mammoth-cargo...

EDIT: More on arrest of a vessel: http://www.maritimelawcenter.com/html/arrest_of_vessel.html

Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by bkor on Thursday September 22, 2016 @05:32PM (#12560535)
They arrested the vessel on order of a bunker supply company at Panama Canal. See http://www.maritimelawcenter.com/html/arrest_of_vessel.html.
Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by prodigal_erik on Thursday September 22, 2016 @08:00PM (#12561359)
Does this mean the ship received fuel oil that isn't paid for? Like tackling a shoplifter on a grand scale?
Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by walrus01 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @10:43PM (#12561964)
basically, yes, in most developed countries ships are provided with large amounts of fuel oil (bunker fuel) on credit, trusting that the large shipping company will pay in the very near future by wire transfer. In really sketchy 3rd world locations ships have to use cash from the captain's safe to buy fuel. If a ship is delinquent in its account with the local fuel supplier, the fuel supplier will file something in their local admiralty court for what is essentially a lien to seize the ship.
Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by bkor on Friday September 23, 2016 @08:43AM (#12564107)
A 10.000+ container vessel uses 100-120 tons of fuel per day (see https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch8en/conc8en/fuel_c...). Bigger ones are more efficient per container, but it'll still be more than 120 tons of fuel. If you fuel up, that's a lot of bunkers to take in. That's not paid in cash. Credit is used.
Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by Animats on Thursday September 22, 2016 @05:33PM (#12560539)
They didn't pay their fuel bill.
Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by rb808 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @10:46PM (#12561971)
Uh does that mean I shouldn't get the new Samsung TV in looking at, best to wait a few months?
Re:Why billions of dollars of goods are stuck at sea by Animats on Friday September 23, 2016 @12:08AM (#12562243)
Expect some really good post-Xmas sales as containers of Xmas stuff arrive late.