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Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by Gustomaximus on Tuesday September 13, 2016 @11:29PM (#12494068)
Great thinking point at the end:

"We always assume that intelligence is responsible for our success," says Hare. "That humans became smarter, which… allowed us to invent wheels and agriculture and iPhones. But what if that wasn't what happened?"

Hare suspects that, "like the foxes, and like dogs, we became friendlier first, and then got smarter by accident. This would mean that our prosocial skills, the skills that allow for cooperation and friendliness, were what made us successful."

Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by vacri on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @12:09AM (#12494184)
A dog with the intelligence of a human still has the problem of having no fine manipulators (hands) with which to assist applying their intelligence on to the world around them.
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by acz on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @04:15AM (#12494931)
A raccoon:

[X] Agile hands, use tools [X] Smart, large brain [X] Omnivore [X] Potentially bipedal [X] Social

Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by hmsln on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @04:43AM (#12495033)
The hands do not just need to be agile to manipulate objects, they also need to have an opposable finger.

Racoons' "hands" (more like paws) do not have any.

Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by danarmak on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @08:23AM (#12496119)
While an opposable thumb is very useful, I don't think it's necessary for "practicing" intelligence. Cut a man's thumbs off and he'll be seriously impaired, but hardly so much that society couldn't develop tool use, agriculture and technology.

I feel opposable thumbs tend to be brought up on the logic of "this is one of many features unique to humans, therefore it must be related to the important feature unique to humans, which is intelligence". In this case it's not even unique to humans: all Old World monkeys and apes have opposable thumbs to one degree or another.

Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by javajosh on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @01:54AM (#12494525)
Whales have prehensile penises, so while it may seem a bit odd to us, they do have fine manipulators. (That said, in all seriousness I don't think a prehensile tail/trunk/penis would really be enough to develop tools the way we have.)
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by nikofeyn on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @12:49AM (#12494307)
i have often wondered if something like the orca has reached basically the pinnacle of intelligence for an ocean-dwelling animal due to the restrictions of being in water.
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by meric on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @01:54AM (#12494520)
I would note squid and octopus have fine manipulators (tentacles) and they are relatively intelligent.
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by dharma1 on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @02:56AM (#12494711)
I've often wondered if we had suitable computer-brain interfaces, could we harness octopus brains to process various computational workloads. Like a squishy co-processor
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by deftnerd on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @07:51AM (#12495914)
I'm not sure about computational, but their optics and the part of the brain that processes it is well used to low light conditions and navigating in space where there isn't just an X and Y axis, but also a Z axis.

Octopus are familiar with scuttling around on the seafloor and navigating around crazy terrain. Squid are used to using jet propulsion.

I've always thought that both species would be interesting to emulate in silicon for space exploration purposes.

Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by wuschel on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @07:12AM (#12495702)
sarcasm on

Don't forget, human brains are squishy, too, and there are many more of them!

Sarcasm off

Not sure if your comment meant to be provocative, or if you just did not think through the ethical considerations of your statement. In fact, I am not sure how well protected octupus as a species are, since they lack a spine.

Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by dharma1 on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @08:17AM (#12496078)
I was half joking, but I think there is something to be said for biological computation far beyond the capabilities of silicon, that we may be able to ultimately harness with better BCIs (brain-computer interface). Imagine Goldman Sachs running market predictions on huge banks of invertebrates hooked up to neural network HFT algorithms, literally earning the name "vampire squid" :)

I think the ethics of something like this is a very challenging area. Legally, cephalopods already enjoy some protection in the EU against scientific experiments that can cause pain - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2...

However we readily eat squid and octopus, to the point of endangering them. We breed chicken and other animals in factories, in the case of battery hen from hatching to killing them in 72 weeks max (about 10% of their normal life span), in often horrific conditions.

Would using octopuses be more ethical than chimps, since they lack a spine and are genetically further from us? What if the octopuses were bred on a farm instead of captured in the wild? What if instead of whole animals, just the nervous system structures were grown in culture?

Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by wuschel on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @09:19AM (#12496544)
Thank you for your reply, and making your position understandable. In my humble opinion science has already a problem with communicating to the general public.

We are still far away from the comprehension of state, or even computuation in living tissue. The technology underlying silicium based computers is quite primitive compared to biologics. Certainly - these are interesting thoughts in theory - but for the sake of science communications with the general public I am very careful in what context and what way I would articulate these concepts.

Animal welfare, and the health of ecosystems, is definitely another minefield of a discussion.

Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by lawless123 on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @07:12AM (#12495700)
I wonder could we do the same with humans.
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by tbarbugli on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @02:30AM (#12494634)
Luckily for us their life span (at least for octopus) is really short :)
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by Shorel on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @04:48AM (#12495046)
The fact that the sea can and will destroy almost anything we (or another sentient species) can manufacture, seems to be a factor as well.
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by restalis on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @08:37AM (#12496200)
I thought it's a known fact that people got smarter through social competition. That supports the assumption that people got smarter after they got friendlier, but that was by no means "by accident".
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by radarsat1 on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @09:08AM (#12496444)
That's what I was thinking too. It seems to me that a certain intelligence might be a requirement for having good social skills, i.e. a good "theory of mind" of individuals around you. Therefore, it would make sense that social skills and intelligence must co-evolve. Total conjecture, of course.
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by mrob on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @09:26AM (#12496605)
However, octopuses are widely considered the smartest invertebrates, and they are solitary creatures. Hunting also exerts selection pressure for higher intelligence. You still need to predict the actions of other species even if you rarely interact with your own.
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by sperglord on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @10:51AM (#12497459)
The idea here though is that social success is more than just smiling constantly and having a trustworthy face. There's some cunning involved.
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by Pica_soO on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @11:23AM (#12497852)
People got social by agreeing on a common enemy. To declare social biotope where social skills such as ally building, intrigues and "friendships" exist, the threat of such a common alienation must exist. The hatred and fear where there first.
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by faitswulff on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @12:07AM (#12494179)
That, and there's some evidence that Neanderthals were physiologically actually smarter than early Homo Sepiens.
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by personjerry on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @01:04AM (#12494346)
Do you have a source for this?
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by bpodgursky on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @01:29AM (#12494427)
The cranial cavities are definitely larger, although it's ambiguous whether that just means better vision. No source on me, but it's not hard to find.
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by Gustomaximus on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @02:36AM (#12494659)
I had a quick googlefu about this (note quick). The articles I found seemed speculative and nothing concrete to show Neanderthals were smarter. Mainly showing they were more similar to us in tools/clothes but nothing to indicate more advanced/smarter.
Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by faitswulff on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @01:19PM (#12499191)
I forgot to link to what I was thinking of: https://www.quora.com/Were-the-Neanderthals-smarter-than-the...

Although I had heard speculations of the sort through more reputable sources, I just can't find it at the moment.

Re:A Soviet scientist created tame foxes by konart on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @09:52AM (#12496837)
I strongly recommend reading Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari on this (among other) subject.