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Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by dr_ on Saturday September 03, 2016 @12:28AM (#12417728)
Similar experience, although less dramatic circumstances, on a Qatar flight. I was asleep, when my wife awoke my and volunteered me to address the needs of a passenger passing out in the aisle of the plane. I asked for equipment to check his vitals. Bp was on the low side so I asked he remain supine with his legs slightly elevated. There was a lady sitting next to us who criticized my every move (she felt I wasn't getting an accurate pressure because he was laying down, but I was more concerned with maintaining his pressure than having it bottom out further). The passengers were upset he was laying in the aisle. Turns out the lady next to me was a physician as well, but she never volunteered this or assisted in any way. He eventually got better and I allowed him to return to his seat. I checked on him as we landed and left the plane. Medical services came with a wheelchair to take him off. No appreciation from the crew on this, but I guess that doesn't matter at the end of the day. barring the criticism I received for how I was handling it, the situation ended well.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by clort on Saturday September 03, 2016 @03:28AM (#12418155)
Its interesting that the other doctor did not volunteer this information. I did pool lifeguard training a few years ago (in the UK) and was told that as this training is at a higher level than basic first aid training I would be legally required to notify my status and presence in an emergency, and that not doing so could leave me open to prosecution. Do doctors not have any obligations such as this laid upon them?

(My lifeguard certification has expired now)

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by barking on Saturday September 03, 2016 @03:52AM (#12418224)
Every medical student hears horror stories where a doctor acting as a good samaritan in less than optimal conditions results in the person who was helped suing them afterwards.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by Nutomic on Saturday September 03, 2016 @07:24AM (#12418780)
In Germany, every citizen is required to give first aid, as long as he doesn't endanger himself. If you don't help, you can get sued. And the law protects first aiders, so they can't usually get sued if they do something wrong.

Source (only in German): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erste_Hilfe#Rechtliche_Situati...

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by GunboatDiplomat on Saturday September 03, 2016 @07:54AM (#12418851)
In the US and probably the rest of the English speaking countries, typically only medical professionals and first responders are required to render aid, but the law does protect "good samaritans" from legal culpability if they do help.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by DINKDINK on Saturday September 03, 2016 @10:03AM (#12419229)
At least in California, Good Samaritan laws will protect someone if and only if they are rendering medical aid that is in line with their training. Meaning if you know CPR and attempt to resuscitate someone who has no pulse and they die / have brain failure -> the law will protect you. If you know CPR and try to remove a bullet from someone's brain and they end up in a vegetative states (IANAL but) -> law probably won't protect you.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by zeroflow on Monday September 05, 2016 @10:07AM (#12430388)
From my EMT course: The lawyer going after you would have to prove without doubt that the patient would clearly have survived if you didn't remove the bullet. In case of getting shot in the head, it's not very plausible that the patient would have survived anyways.

From a actual lawsuit: Someone without the proper training started an IV which later caused sepsis and death. Since the patient was admitted to an hospital it was not clear if an improply placed IV caused the death or an improper care in the hospital.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by dghughes on Saturday September 03, 2016 @12:21PM (#12419758)
There have been recent situations here in Canada where very ill people were literally on the doorstep of the ER asking for help but were refused any help.

In nearly all the situations the staff in the building told the sick people outside to call 911 to get transported inside two feet inside the door.

The hospital workers and by that I mean nurses and doctors were unwilling to help even though the people outside were very ill.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by geoka9 on Saturday September 03, 2016 @01:30PM (#12420095)
So the problem was that those people couldn't get inside the ER by themselves and the nurses and doctors refused to move them?

I ask because I once walked my relative into an ER and they were attended to, no problem.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by dghughes on Sunday September 04, 2016 @12:13PM (#12425095)
Yes sometimes it's a person literally on the doorstep of the ER in front of the doors. One time a news report said the person was in a passenger seat of a car. But usually right there at the ER in some state of distress.

I can understand some concerns of staff but to flat out refuse seems to go against the ethics of being in the medical trade.

I also suspect it's government bureaucracy and union rules, paperwork trumps life I guess.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by knowtheory on Saturday September 03, 2016 @01:23PM (#12420038)
So, the problem in Canada is that those policies are left up to each hospital or health unit to decide, and there doesn't appear to be a consensus (which is weird)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/hospital-er-call-help-1.368630...

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by JshWright on Saturday September 03, 2016 @08:47AM (#12418990)
In the US, a 'duty to act' generally only exists if someone is 'on the clock'.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by chanandler_bong on Saturday September 03, 2016 @03:13PM (#12420603)
Unless you have a "duty to respond", you are not required to act.

Even if you are a paramedic with the local fire department, in uniform and walking down the street, unless you are on-duty, you do not have to act. You'd be a massive dick if you didn't, but there is no legal requirement.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by dreamcompiler on Sunday September 04, 2016 @12:36PM (#12425244)
Correct. I was an EMT, and I would have been in no legal jeopardy for driving by an accident instead of responding, if I was off duty or outside my response area. (However, I always did stop and help if other responders were not yet on scene or looked like they could use more hands.) OTOH, my EMT license meant I was not protected by good samaritan laws. As DINKDINK pointed out, if I "helped" beyond the scope of my training, I could have been sued.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by mschwaig on Saturday September 03, 2016 @08:45AM (#12418986)
From what I've heard in Austria this protection from getting sued only applies if you're not a trained professional like a paramedic or doctor.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by Radle on Saturday September 03, 2016 @09:33AM (#12419128)
That shouldn't be possible in Germany anyways, since helping is a constitutional responsibility.

Therefore no normal law should be able to break your cover. As long as there's no doubt on your good intentions.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by mschwaig on Sunday September 04, 2016 @05:58AM (#12423599)
Imagine you get to an emergency as a doctor and your patient has a blocked airway, so you perform an improvised tracheostomy, but because you're nervous you cut horizontally instead of vertically and kill the patient. I'm pretty sure as a doctor good intentions are not enough in cases like this.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by grkvlt on Sunday September 04, 2016 @09:13AM (#12424154)
Of course they are. If you are in that situation, then the patient would die (asphyxiate, probably, since they cannot breathe) without help. The doctor _tried_ to help, in non-optimal circumstances, so as long as the mistake was not intentional or due to negligence, the I believe the law will protect you in most countries.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by sokoloff on Monday September 05, 2016 @08:11AM (#12429716)
Remember also that it's not enough to win, you also have to win quickly and cheaply. If that protection isn't reasonably assured, that will tend to bias people towards non-action.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by sleavey on Saturday September 03, 2016 @03:58AM (#12418240)
On my first aid training (UK) we were told that no court has ever passed a conviction based on someone trying to provide help in an emergency. It's only one data point, but it seems morally right to me.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by dazc on Saturday September 03, 2016 @07:15AM (#12418760)
I was told something similar along the lines of '..if the patient isn't breathing, nothing you do will make it worse'
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by MistahKoala on Saturday September 03, 2016 @10:09AM (#12419257)
Pretty much. Their chances only get worse without intervention whilst waiting for the emergency services to turn up. I was told to expect broken ribs etc - which, apparently, aren't as grave an outcome as death.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by Silhouette on Saturday September 03, 2016 @12:23PM (#12419774)
The trainers on first aid courses I've attended have all said similar things. Yes, you are quite likely to break a casualty's ribs if you have to give them chest compressions. However, if you're a trained first aider and you're considering giving them chest compressions in the first place, presumably it's because you have ascertained that their heart isn't working properly and their life is therefore in immediate danger. Unless giving the compressions is getting in the way of something more important, like calling professional help as soon as possible or using an AED if one is available, it's practically impossible to make things worse for the casualty by trying.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by throwaway049 on Saturday September 03, 2016 @03:21PM (#12420647)
One of my colleagues in the ambulance service got a formal complaint from a patient after a successful resus where the patient sustained two rib fractures. Fortunately the doc in charge of the ED stepped up and told the patient to stop being an ass.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by barking on Saturday September 03, 2016 @04:15AM (#12418278)
I don't know about that. I don't know how the people who told you that can be sure. Also you aren't really talking about criminal convictions but rather, civil actions which may never end up in front of a judge except to finalise things. These things can take years and you're dealing with no foal, no fee lawyers. Medical litigation can be an incredibly stressful situation and commonly there are coached clients who will look people in the eye and tell outright lies. These type of scummy lawyers won't go after joe soaps from whom nothing can be recovered. Also as a doctor on a flight, can you be sure that your insurer will cover you for your work outside the jurisdiction for which you're insured?
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by EliRivers on Saturday September 03, 2016 @04:59AM (#12418410)
That nobody has been sued for this in the UK does appear to be a common belief amongst professional organisations.

"Despite the fact that no-one in the UK has been sued for providing first aid, it is a common fear that we’re regularly asked about." - Joe Mulligan, British Red Cross, 2015

"Although potential legal liability arising from good samaritan acts is something about which we're regularly asked by healthcare professionals, in practice we have never encountered a UK doctor, paramedic, nurse or other healthcare professional being sued after providing this kind of emergency assistance." - Shoosmiths, a major UK law firm that I have heard described as "Ambulance Chasers".

It seems to be common in the US for people to get sued for helping. Not so much in the UK, and following the 2105 SARAH act, which creates additional protections for such people, now even less likely.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by cmdkeen on Saturday September 03, 2016 @05:35AM (#12418497)
Devon Air Ambulance used to tell a story, possibly apocryphal, about a callout to the middle of Dartmoor. In the course of treating a woman they had to cut off her cashmere top. After the incident they received a demand from the woman to pay for the damage done to her top, valued at several hundred pounds.

They replied that they would of course pay if she would reimburse them for the cost of the flight - enclosing a bill for £10,000. Answer came there none.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by EliRivers on Saturday September 03, 2016 @05:50AM (#12418543)
I do know that sometimes people do seek to start legal proceedings against emergency services. I worked with a fireman once who told me of a lady who wanted to start legal proceedings for some kind of assault based on how a fireman picked her up to carry her out of a building. Again, came to nothing.

In this day and age, if we cannot find any UK instance of someone being sued for providing first aid, I think we can label it "urban myth". Maybe some obsessive HN reader will find one for us :)

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by DanBC on Saturday September 03, 2016 @06:05AM (#12418582)
http://www.realfirstaid.co.uk/dutyofcare/

> The most important thing to remember is that to date, no one in the UK has ever been sued for administering life-saving First Aid.

But also:

http://www.sa-cni.org.uk/uploads/4/9/5/4/4954631/the_legal_s...

> There have been some cases in the UK where a claim has been brought against a ‘rescuer’, although there have been no reported cases in court where a casualty has successfully sued someone.

> • Out-of-court settlements are more common and go unreported, so it is likely that some claims against a rescuer have been ‘successful’, but these will have gone unreported.

> • It should be noted that even if a first aider is successful in defending himself against a claim, it is unlikely that he will be able to recover the full legal costs in defending himself. In civil litigation, it is unusual for a court to award the successful party more than 80% of their costs and it’s possible that an accusation can cost tens of thousands of pounds to defend.

> • In some instances it can be less expensive to settle a claim out of court than to defend it. It is not uncommon for insurers to settle claims even when the defendant was innocent, as this is the least expensive and least risky option.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by mikeash on Sunday September 04, 2016 @12:34PM (#12425224)
This story took me a moment to process as an American, because here you'd get that bill regardless of whether you complained, and they wouldn't be joking about it!
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by cmdkeen on Sunday September 04, 2016 @05:46PM (#12426885)
In England and Wales all the air ambulances are charities, though receiving government funds. Much like the lifeboat provision by the RNLI it is a story of very different service provision than a purely state run institution would provide.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by Xylakant on Saturday September 03, 2016 @04:29AM (#12418314)
In germany all emergency aid is privileged in the sense that the law bars any suit against you (except probably purposefully causing damages and injury) and all insurance claims are covered by the Berufsgenossenschaft (sort of a public insurance for anything work-related). I'd expect that many jurisdictions have similar laws since that just makes sense from the view of the society.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by barking on Saturday September 03, 2016 @04:41AM (#12418353)
No fault insurance is something that a lot of people would like to see in places where it's not. It allows for an environment where problems see the light of day and can be fixed. Germany commonly seems to get a lot of things right.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by patrickdavey on Saturday September 03, 2016 @05:25AM (#12418476)
"no fault insurance" kinda sounds like what we have in New Zealand with ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation). Everyone contributes a bit into it through tax, but the flip side is that _everyone_ on New Zealand soil (not just citizens) is covered for accident related issues.

For example, I was hiking (or tramping as it's called in NZ) with a foreign friend visiting. They were unlucky and broke an ankle. We called the police, a helicopter was dispatched, picked her up, brought her to the hospital and fixed the ankle up. Zero cost to her.

One of the many upsides is that it's quite difficult to sue for personal injuries in NZ - as ACC basically covers the costs (or at least, that's my understanding anyway)

Sure there are downsides to any system, and some people do fall through the cracks of ACC, but on balance, I think it's one of the best things about NZ (besides the nice relaxed atmosphere and killer scenery)

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by freddyc on Saturday September 03, 2016 @10:16AM (#12419276)
I was reading about tort reform once and stumbled upon NZ's ACC concept and was staggered by its effectiveness. I suspect its success is due in part to NZ's population size, but any system that ensures all accident related issues are covered AND for the most part renders the civil courts redundant for personal injury claims is pretty phenomenal. I don't have a source for this, but I also remember reading that the ACC is now one of NZ's largest institutional investors with something like $30bn under management!
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by sokoloff on Monday September 05, 2016 @08:20AM (#12429754)
Does it cover loss of income and other consequential losses from the injury? If person A's negligence causes the loss of arm of person B, once person B is out of danger of dying and the acute injuries have healed, person B still has on-going harm from person A.

Suppose person B was a surgeon and lost their dominant arm/hand. Is that loss of income covered by ACC, via suing person A, or "too bad, so sad"?

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by patrickdavey on Monday September 05, 2016 @12:30PM (#12431100)
I don't know the exact details, but yes, your income is covered up to some percentage, I'm not sure exactly what (80% springs to mind but I'm not certain - though Wikipedia suggests it's about right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_Compensation_Corporat... )
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by Xylakant on Saturday September 03, 2016 @06:16AM (#12418608)
Assuming no fault is something you want in a lot of places. For example the general rule for all emergency services (that is police, fire brigade etc.) is that unless you deliberately place a fake call, you're generally not held liable. The reasoning is that all emergency services would prefer to be notified earlier rather than later (for example for smoke rather than a full blown fire) and holding the caller liable for false alarms provides a strong incentive against that. So all in all, false alarms are considered something that the community/society needs to bear in return for peoples willingness to help/notify.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by 7402 on Sunday September 04, 2016 @12:32AM (#12422708)
Although (in the US), many cities will bill you for ambulance service. If things work out ideally, your insurance will then pay the ambulance fee.

There are also cities that charge fees for sending fire trucks to vehicle fires and accidents if non-residents are involved.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by lyschoening on Saturday September 03, 2016 @04:32AM (#12418326)
That is a feature of US law, isn't it? Quite a few countries have laws that compel people to render first aid and at the same time offer protection from prosecution even if the first aid makes matters worse.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by blakeyrat on Saturday September 03, 2016 @11:26AM (#12419536)
Both China and India have huge problems with citizens ignoring medical emergency to avoid being held responsible if the patient doesn't recover. The case of Wang Yue is famous enough that even most Americans have heard of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by barking on Saturday September 03, 2016 @04:37AM (#12418347)
There's an intersting article here on the US situation. Seems you do have good protection, though it's not absolute.

http://medicaleconomics.modernmedicine.com/medical-economics...

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by Veratyr on Saturday September 03, 2016 @04:15AM (#12418277)
In Australia my understanding is that there are laws preventing exactly this. This comes from a relative who's a registered nurse.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by Introvertuous on Saturday September 03, 2016 @03:56AM (#12418233)
So in other words, sued if you dont, sued if you do.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by criddell on Saturday September 03, 2016 @07:07PM (#12421712)
Those are mostly urban legends.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by DanBC on Saturday September 03, 2016 @07:00AM (#12418711)
In the UK you're not legally required to provide assistance unless you have a duty of care.

When you're lifeguarding you have that duty of care. When you're a passenger on a flight you don't.

(I think once you start providing assistance you need to keep doing it)

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by niij on Saturday September 03, 2016 @12:44AM (#12417776)
Too many chiefs, not enough Indians. Thank you for doing the right thing!
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by cm2187 on Saturday September 03, 2016 @03:04AM (#12418115)
Don't physicians in the US take the hippocratic oath too?
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by ntaylor on Saturday September 03, 2016 @03:26AM (#12418150)
They surely do.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by kchoudhu on Saturday September 03, 2016 @06:37AM (#12418660)
I'm actually really surprised that QR didn't top up your frequent flyer account with something -- I've seen them do it on multiple occasions.

(Source: spend way too much time flying back and forth between Doha and the US)

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by themartorana on Saturday September 03, 2016 @10:18AM (#12419280)
Not that it matters now, but I appreciate you doing that in the face of indifference or outright criticism. If it were me or my family in need, you stepping up would be huge.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by geoka9 on Saturday September 03, 2016 @01:32AM (#12417905)
Thank you!