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Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by WalterBright on Thursday September 01, 2016 @11:51PM (#12410719)
The 747 is an amazing engineering achievement. Even more than that, it's an amazing business achievement. The 747 was an "all in", "bet the company" program for Boeing. It took many, many years for the company to break even on its investment, but after that the 747 was a money-making machine for Boeing and for the airlines. When I worked at Boeing in the early 80's, every time a 747 rolled off the assembly line a gigantic paycheck went into the company. (Just walking down the assembly line in the Everett plant was more fun (for me, as an aero nerd) than an E-ticket ride.)

Airlines loved the 747, because it was a money-making machine for them, too. Nobody could compete with the 747 for decades.

The 747 provided the technology and the money to develop the 757, 767, etc.

Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by dingaling on Friday September 02, 2016 @02:37AM (#12411296)
> Airlines loved the 747, because it was a money-making machine for them, too.

Quite the opposite for most of the 1970s and much of the 1980s. Many smaller national airlines such as Aer Lingus, Air Canada and Sabena bought the 747 for the 'prestige' and its range, but struggled to make any money from it and eventually ditched it for smaller trijets and twins.

KLM managed to keep going by flying them in Combi configuration with half of the main deck given over to cargo.

Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2016 @02:53AM (#12411364)
If you buy one for prestige purposes, of course you're going to lose money. Airplanes only make money when they're packed with payload. An airplane sitting on the ground, or flying half-full, is going to lose money like a firehose drains a tank. But if your logistics are set up to keep the 747 flying as close as possible to 24/7 packed with payload, you can make a crapton of money, which is why Boeing was selling so many.
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by FigBug on Friday September 02, 2016 @09:08AM (#12412719)
I never understood why Boeing risked it all on the 747. The Boeing 2707 was supposed to be the future of passenger travel and the 747 was supposed to get relegated to freight. Why risk it all for what was expected to be a stop gap product?

For the first wide body, why not start with something 767 sized? Why start with the biggest?

Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by sjm-lbm on Friday September 02, 2016 @09:23AM (#12412820)
You answered it yourself: freight. Basically everything about the 747 was optimized around requirements for transporting freight (including fuselage width and placing the flight deck above the main level).
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by ak217 on Friday September 02, 2016 @12:53PM (#12414396)
The requirements for the 747 were largely driven by the USAF and then Pan Am. If I understand right, both customers were so influential that Boeing felt it had to accommodate them.
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2016 @02:19PM (#12415043)
The USAF never did buy any 747s.
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by hga on Friday September 02, 2016 @05:05PM (#12416284)
Formally, there's the Civil Reserve Air Fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Reserve_Air_Fleet and in general these planes can be used in emergencies. The transport planes the US military tends to buy have additional requirements that aren't conducive to civil air fleet profitability.
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by emp_zealoth on Friday September 02, 2016 @04:17PM (#12415953)
The Space Shuttle never flew any polar missions either
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by ak217 on Friday September 02, 2016 @07:17PM (#12416903)
Right, because Lockheed won the bid, and Boeing had to shop their design around to Pan Am and civilian freighters.
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by asimuvPR on Friday September 02, 2016 @01:42AM (#12411085)
Airplane assembly lines are amazing. I did a tour of the Lockheed atlanta plant and ir blew my mind. Seeing a handful of c130 in line in various states of assembly was mindblowing. The scale of the place is just ridiculous. I can't imagine how the 747 line might have been.
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2016 @02:55AM (#12411373)
The 747 assembly line is just a thing of beauty. Boeing assembly lines are also spotlessly clean, and meticulously organized. The parts themselves are also very well made, just compare them with auto parts.
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by acemarke on Friday September 02, 2016 @12:19AM (#12410809)
Absolutely random note: I had never heard the phrase "E-ticket ride" in my life until earlier today, when one of my dad's buddies mentioned it while we were out golfing and explained the context. Just a few hours later, I see it here. Amusing.
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by gregpilling on Friday September 02, 2016 @12:38AM (#12410871)
E ticket, is a reference to how Disneyland used to price rides. The most exciting rides like Space Mountain, required an E ticket; this was before the pay-once-ride-anything plan was introduced.

I went to Disneyland for the first time in 1979, and the E ticket was in use then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_ticket

Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by WalterBright on Friday September 02, 2016 @01:40AM (#12411074)
Disneyland was another of those totally game-changing innovations like the 747.
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by Bluestrike2 on Friday September 02, 2016 @02:26AM (#12411249)
The outsized effect of Disneyland on the American psyche has always fascinated me. In a lot of ways, Disneyland is synonymous with the idea of the family vacation. I remember reading a fascinating article a few months back about a column Elie Wiesel wrote about his trip to Disneyland [0]:

> I don’t know if a Garden of Eden awaits adults in the hereafter. I do know, though, that there is a Garden of Eden for children here in this life. I know because I myself visited this paradise. I have just returned from there, just passed through its gates, just left the magical kingdom known as Disneyland. And as I bid that kingdom farewell, I understood for the first time the true meaning of the French saying ‘to leave is to die a little’ [partir, c’est mourir un peu]

For a theme park--of all things--to create that sort of effect on its visitors is nothing short of remarkable.

0. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/206125/elie...

Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by rangibaby on Friday September 02, 2016 @05:44AM (#12411929)
> Disneyland is synonymous with the idea of the family vacation

Hoo boy

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/read-john-hughes-o...

and the no-celebrities-harmed film adaptation "Vacation".

Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by dredmorbius on Friday September 02, 2016 @06:24AM (#12412051)
In addition to the Baader-Meinhoff phenomenon, I think there's also the notion of having a concept move into the scope of awareness.

I'm doing a lot of worldview refactoring, reading and thinking on many subjects and topics. As I start assimilating new models and references, I'm going back to older sources and revisiting them in light of the new models I've been acquiring and developing.

The effect can be profound, with many "familiar" works suddenly taking on highly unexpected dimensions.

My own first exposure to "E-Ticket" came from Julie Brown's "The Homecoming Queen's got a Gun"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xG3yGdQYwqg

(A song and video which probably wouldn't fly today.)

Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by Mickchicken2 on Friday September 02, 2016 @03:02PM (#12415375)
Can you explain worldview refactoring? This sounds like something I have been mulling on recently. (Concept not phrase)
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by dredmorbius on Saturday September 03, 2016 @08:45AM (#12418988)
https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/4cudix/21st_ce...

If you take "worldview" to be the aggregate of models, premises, axioms, rules-of-thumb, personal and cultural context, etc., etc., you end up with a pretty hairy melenge of crud.

Some of it is useful and accurate. A lot of it isn't. (All models are wrong, some are useful.) Almost all of it has very strong path dependencies. Language itself is problematic as we define things in terms of other things, and if all the ground is soft and/or unstable, then that shifts.

I'm looking at ideas involving progress, models, institutions, limits, and interactions among them. I've been thinking for a while of adding "values" to that list as well.

There are large constraints in discussing this with others, particularly as much of the thinking is novel (though as I dig through dusty and rusty corners I'm finding I'm reinventing a lot of ideas previously considered -- something I find heartening), but moreso, that those who hold the mainstream worldview are heavily vested in it.

There's an as-yet-unwritten essay on apocalyptic thinking. Not in the sense of fire-from-the-sky the world will explode meaning, but in that the roots of the words "revelation", "enlightenment", "apocalypse", "catastrophe", and "revolution", among others, refer to an overturning. "The scales dropped from my eyes". There's a Cupertino mystic I bumped across online (no, not Steve Jobs) who has a really expressive little bit that enlightenment is not in the least comforting. Or to borrow from Arthur C. Clarke's title -- it's a childhood's end.

Solidifying a bit, I'm finding the ecologists far more convincing and reality-based than (most of) the economists. Howard Odum, William Ophuls, Vaclav Smil, Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen (economist), Herman Daly (ecological economist). But the roots of economic thought, in particular 18th and 19th century, are also pretty fascinating. There's Steuart (almost wholly ignored by Smith), and as a recently discovered example, T. E. Cliffe Leslie, "The Political Economy of Adam Smith" (1870), which does an excellent job of expressing what I've been trying to put my finger on about economics (and all philosophy) being grounded in specific circumstances.

http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/econ/ugcm/3ll3/leslie/leslie01.ht...

No branch of philosophical doctrine, indeed, can be fairly investigated or apprehended apart from its history. All our systems of politics, morals, and metaphysics would be different if we knew exactly how they grew up, and what transformations they have undergone; if we knew, in short, the true history of human ideas. And the history of political economy, at any rate, is not lost. It would not be difficult to trace the connection between every extant treatise prior to the `Wealth of Nations,' and conditions of thought at the epoch at which it appeared. But there is the less occasion, for the purpose of these pages, or of ascertaining the origin and foundation of the economic doctrines of our own day, to go behind the epoch of Adam Smith, that he has himself traced the systems of political economy antecedent to his own to a particular course of history, to `the different progress of opulence in different ages and nations,' and `the private interests and prejudices of particular orders of men.' What he did not see was, that his own system, in its turn, was the product of a particular history; that what he regarded as the System of Nature was a descendant of the System of Nature as conceived by the ancients, in a form fashioned by the ideas and circumstances of his own time, and. coloured by his own disposition and course of life. Still less could he see how, after his time, `the progress of opulence' would govern the interpretation of his doctrines, or how the system he promulgated as the system of liberty, justice, and divine benevolence, would be moulded into a system of selfishness by `the private interests and prejudices of particular orders of men.'

Also claimed is that Smith is entirely deductive. I'm not so convinced of this (Smith actually does cite observations and behaviour frequently), though it is true in parts, and most true in those parts of Smith that are most widely and loudly championed today, particularly the wholly fabricated notion that an "Invisible Hand" is some mechanism by which markets operate. It's not mechanism but apparent outcome, an outcome, it turns out from much subsequent studies. fantastically sensitive to actual conditions, and not in the least guaranteed. (See epecially Joseph Stiglitz.)

Anyhow, small bits. But yes, I'm running an abattoir for sacred cows and received truths.

The linked subbreddit (above) is where I'm exploring much of that. Conversation spills out in other places, including HN.

Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by handedness on Friday September 02, 2016 @01:20AM (#12411012)
Re:Joe Sutter, who guided creation of the Boeing 747, has died by agumonkey on Friday September 02, 2016 @06:41AM (#12412113)
It's odd, for a reason, even as a young kid, the 747 was the de-facto standard for "king of airplanes".