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Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by danielrhodes on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @08:56AM (#12389559)
It seems hard to believe that Apple was receiving special treatment when practically every MNC has been using this very same loophole. But at this point it is he said/she said. This loophole is now closed, so the EC pursuing this feels more vindictive than anything (especially since the EU has had it out for US tech companies for awhile now).
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by exDM69 on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:03AM (#12389631)
It's likely that Google, Facebook, Ikea, et al. will receive similar consequences in the near future. Apple is just the first to receive a slap in the wrists. Hopefully this will reach beyond Ireland and similar investigations will be done in Netherlands and Luxemburg.

A lot of Europeans (me included) are not at all happy to see massively profitable companies operating in Europe without paying practically any taxes. This makes it impossible for European companies to compete with them and I'm very glad the authorities are looking to level the playing field and bring in some tax revenue while doing so.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by LaSombra on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:29AM (#12389854)
It seems Amazon[1], Starbucks[2] and Fiat[3] are being investigated in Luxembourg and the Netherlands. So, Apple is not the only one, yet.

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30844962

[2] http://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/case_details.cf...

[3] http://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/case_details.cf...

EDIT: Formatting

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by walki on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:33AM (#12389900)
I am a Luxembourger and I fully agree that the EU must close these kinds of tax loop holes. In the past my country made a little money out of these tax loop holes, this was immoral money that my country did not even need. Doing this, other European countries lost a lot of tax income. The only ones winning big time in scheme were the international companies abusing the EU and its people.
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by pzh on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:55AM (#12390108)
Just out of curiosity, why would tax competition be considered bad? It is generally accepted that monopolies and cartels are bad for the free market, but when it comes to governments and the services they provide, we're completely OK with tax cartels. These EU and OECD tax agreements basically amount to a tax cartel, where governments agree they'll fix their tax rate regardless of the infrastructure and level of services they provide...
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by exDM69 on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:57AM (#12390702)
> Just out of curiosity, why would tax competition be considered bad?

In the European union, where funds are easily transferred between subsidiaries in different countries, tax competition by individual member states can have particularly harmful effects on the public economy as a whole.

In a typical multinational corp tax avoidance scheme, a coproration has a subsidiary A in e.g. Ireland and has a very small corporate tax rate on profits. Then another country, e.g. Netherlands gives subsidiary B a tax break on some commodity, typically an IP licensing scheme of some kind.

Subsidiary A licenses some IP from B, and the licensing fees are conveninently 100% of the profits of A, so they're not making a profit in Ireland and don't have to pay tax there. Subsidiary B gets all their profits from IP licensing that pays hardly any tax in the Netherlands.

Add a few subsiriaries and loan arrangements between them (free movement of capital in Europe is one of the fundamental pillars of the EU), and no taxes get paid and all of the profits get funneled into a tax haven such as Bahamas or Caymans.

So while you'd think that tax competition would just be a fair competition when talking about individual countries, at EU scale it ends up being a race to the bottom where a few select countries (Ireland, Netherlands, Luxemburg) get a nominal fee from the multinationals but all European states end up losing billions in tax revenue.

And then there's also the corruption aspect. These tax deals aren't a gesture of goodwill.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by walki on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:43AM (#12390588)
> Just out of curiosity, why would tax competition be considered bad?

This is not about tax competition, this is about abusing tax loop holes and trying to avoid paying any tax at all. E.g. before 2015 Amazon declared their entire European income in Luxembourg and payed about 1 percent of tax on that money. This way other (much bigger) European countries like Germany and France lost billions.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by pjc50 on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @11:01AM (#12390743)
You can't have tax competition and freedom of movement of companies, goods and capital. It's the tradeoff in the EU for removing all protective internal tariffs.

(The US avoids much inter-state tax competition through federal taxes)

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by Amezarak on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @12:28PM (#12391548)
The US has tons of inter-state tax competition; federal taxes just comprise the base rate, not the total taxation rate. State governments fall all over themselves to offer special incentives for companies to come in. Or stay, in some cases - a local employer has been here almost 80 years, yet the state and local governments still feel they need a massive multimillion dollar tax break or they'll pick up and leave.
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by xgbi on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:14AM (#12390333)
It is bad because it decorrelates the country you make a profit out of from the country you pay taxes on this profit.

The people paying for your product are able to buy it because they live in a country that provides for them, through added value, jobs, health care, infrastructure and so on. If you want to profit from these people's buying power, then you have to conform to that country's rules of business, that's all.

Apple is very happy to make huge sells of iPhones thoughout France, Germany, Italy and such countries, siphoning money from their people to Ireland, without ever contributing as much into the local economy. They employ a few hundred people in Apple stores and hotlines, but compared to their profit it is just ridiculous.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by pzh on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:57AM (#12390707)
Is that really the case? Apple operates in Ireland and it pays taxes there based on a certain competitive rate it has. If Apple sells phones in certain countries, it has a network of suppliers there and it pays taxes on their business operations there. It seems that you're making the argument that the phones have to be produced in every country where they're sold in order to eliminate trade deficits (the so-called decorrelation of profits and taxes that would result from the importing of a product). But the only way for the other countries to get that tax revenue would be to be competitive enough (through competitive tax rates, availability of talent, infrastructure, legal system, etc.), so that Apple would be incentivized to open offices and move their R&D and pay taxes there. It seems you're arguing that these other countries shouldn't have to compete on these criteria, but should somehow be entitled to that tax revenue or at least to protectionist measures that would make sure that Apple has no incentive to go anywhere else, purely based on the fact that willing buyers purchase Apple's products there. I'm not sure that's a very strong argument because it basically amounts to saying that if you don't force Apple to give some form of a discount to these buyers, they won't be able to buy the product in the future...
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by pjc50 on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @11:03AM (#12390764)
The thing about transfer pricing is that it makes the "location where value is created" completely arbitary. It's not where the R&D is done, it's where the shell company that holds the patents is registered.

Apple subsidiaries in random countries selling phones don't pay taxes because they don't make any profit. They don't make any profit because they're "charged" an amount for the phones (and IP, branding etc) that exactly equals the sales.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by weddpros on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:48AM (#12390625)
"decorrelates the country you make a profit out of from the country you pay taxes on this profit": taxes are due where value creation took place. That's called a rule. The EU decided the rule should be changed after the fact, retroactively.

"people paying for your product are able to buy it because they live in a country that provides for them": wow... really? I know governments love considering people's money as theirs, people's lives as theirs, but that's a bit far stretched maybe? I'm not any country's liability. I'm a free man in a free society. Aren't you?

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by webXL on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @11:25AM (#12390975)
"Without the Glorious State, you wouldn't have had any consumers to make you wealthy!"

Here's a business producing commerce-enabling technology in an extremely valuable manner, hence the profit. Consumers exchanged their earned, post-tax savings for those things and paid additional tax along the way. To act like governments were short-changed is preposterous. It's "you didn't build that" taken to the extreme, and borderline extortion.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by intended on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:13AM (#12390320)
Because cartels means something specific to a group of market players and tax means something specific to a nation state.

The two are vastly different, and the first is tolerated only by the latter because it's the best way we know to bring order and organization to trade.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by jomamaxx on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:05AM (#12390227)
"In the past"

In the past?

This is ongoing - enabled by Junker himself ...

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by walki on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:34AM (#12390513)
> This is ongoing - enabled by Junker himself ...

No, it is not. Before 2015 many companies (one prominent example being Amazon) declared their entire European income in Luxembourg and payed about 1 percent tax on that money. This tax loop hole has since been closed by the EU, Luxembourg lost about 10 percent of its budget because of this. Today when somebody from e.g. Germany buys a product from Amazon.de, Amazon pays tax in Germany for this product.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by dogma1138 on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:39AM (#12390555)
This isn't only ongoing, this is by design, and being actively pushed further, because in the EU if you are by definition an equal opportunity tax haven like Luxemburg you are golden.

Luxembourg is like the delaware of Europe, it's a banking and financial institution state and both its own laws and the EU laws and policies it lobbies (and when you effectively are not only Delaware but also the DC of the EU it kinda helps) for ensure that it would continue to operate as one.

The bad thing that Ireland and is a big no-no in the EU is to go to the likes of apple and say:

Hai Apple I really want you inside of me! I know I'm small, and I don't have a huge workforce and internal market, I'm not like Germany. I also don't have a huge economic and financial infrastructure like Luxembourg, Switzerland or UK (London) but I'm a really hard worker! Tell me what skills you need, and I'll educate my people, I'll give you low interest loans to build your shiny offices and I will give you tax deduction if you employ my peeps. I would do all that I can to make sure it will be easy for you to operate here because I really don't have much to offer and I need to compete with the bigger countries since the euro is expensive and the price stability is managed by the ECB and my people need to eat and loans I've been taking on are becoming harder and harder to pay.

Now this is the only way that Ireland can really attract large corporations and make it more lucrative to invest in its industry, this is what effectively every country on the planet does when it wants to grow. And since Ireland can't control it's own monetary policy and currency it also can't just be a cheap place to be, while there is some local variation because of the mandate of the ECB to control the price stability within the Eurozone the prices of many goods and services are quite similar (Ireland is actually more expensive than Germany because it's an island which increases the costs of logistics and it has lower production which means more imports which add costs even if they import within the EU) it needs boost its economy in order to match the salary level of the other Eurozone states and to do it it needs to offer something to corporations.

It can't offer them a huge workforce because it doesn't have one, It can't offer them access to financial and banking infrastructure because it doesn't have that either, what it can offer is English, fund both academic and vocational education and training based on the skills those companies need and give them tax incentives to come and employ Irish people. Ireland isn't Luxembourg Apple didn't set up effectively a "shell" there that's pretty much there for easy tax loopholes and actually employes no one, Apple employees directly over 6000 people in Ireland and indirectly 4-5K more, same goes for Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon and the likes. This isn't some tax break Island that those companies incorporate in by name only and don't actually have staff, companies have "real" employees in Ireland because the Irish "incentives" are tied to direct employment. Ireland isn't trying to create tax loopholes to make a quick buck to split it between a few 100's residents, it tries to keep it's 5M people employed, forcing them to play by the "same rules" as 4 of the world's 10 largest economies is asinine.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by jomamaxx on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @12:28PM (#12391542)
"Luxembourg is like the delaware of Europe,"

But most taxes in the US are Federal.

In Europe they are effectively 'state level' - making the problem worse for Europe than for state-by-state tax competition in the US.

Re: your Ireland comment - yes - I see your point, but the issue here is not Ireland having a 'lower tax rate' of 12.5% - rather than they allowed Apple to have 'special privileges' thereby paying next to nothing, right?

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by Amezarak on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @12:41PM (#12391652)
> But most taxes in the US are Federal.

Are you sure about that?

It's going to depend very much on where you are, how you're organized, what tax breaks you get, and how much money you make, but states generally have both a) many different kinds of tax: income tax, property tax, sales tax and b) a cumulative higher tax rate. A much higher proportion of my money personally goes to the state than it does to the feds.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by jomamaxx on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @05:50PM (#12394227)
In Europe, there are no 'Federal' taxes i.e. at the European level. All taxes are to the 'State'. So it doesn't matter if my analogy is a little bit off.
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by Amezarak on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @07:12PM (#12394711)
I am not sure I understand why it makes a difference. If the baseline (federal taxes) are the same everywhere, it's just the same as if there were no federal taxes. States compete and offer special tax breaks on a state level; that's the same situation we had here in Europe, except that the federal government, unlike the EU, doesn't seem to care if states offer a company crazy tax breaks, subsidies, or loans, even if said breaks are a special deal for that company alone.
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by jomamaxx on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @12:52AM (#12396116)
There are no 'Federal Taxes' in Europe. Corporations don't pay a corporate tax at the European level - just to the states. So there is tax competition.
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by Amezarak on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @05:44AM (#12397146)
Right...but the existence of a federal tax is irrelevant; there is still tons of tax competition because the states assess their own taxes. The federal tax rate, from the competitive perspective, is irrelevant because everyone pays it. But every state has different taxes and they compete with each other to give the biggest tax breaks.

For for example you might have:

State A: State income tax: 5% Property tax: 5% Sales tax: 5%

State B: State income tax: 6% Property tax: 6% Sales tax: 5%

Yes, everyone in both State A and B pay, let's say, a federal 7% income tax and payroll taxes. But the state taxes make a huge difference. State says to Wal-Corp - build a store here and you'll be exempt from property taxes and sales tax for 5 years, and we'll give you a special state income tax credit that reduces it to 3%. That's the kind of deal making we have going on with states, except the federal government doesn't intervene to stop it like the EU did here.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by fulafel on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @12:58AM (#12396128)
Also the EU budget is tiny relative to states, around 1% of GDP.
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by dogma1138 on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @12:51PM (#12391723)
It was more of a humorous remark, Delaware is more about the laws and courts that govern corporations rather than a simple tax break.

http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/local/brandywine-to-broad...

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by unprepare on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:35AM (#12389916)
From the EC's press release:

> Since June 2013, the Commission has been investigating the tax ruling practices of Member States. It extended this information inquiry to all Member States in December 2014. In October 2015, the Commission concluded that Luxembourg and the Netherlands had granted selective tax advantages to Fiat and Starbucks, respectively. In January 2016, the Commission concluded that selective tax advantages granted by Belgium to least 35 multinationals, mainly from the EU, under its "excess profit" tax scheme are illegal under EU state aid rules. The Commission also has two ongoing in-depth investigations into concerns that tax rulings may give rise to state aid issues in Luxembourg, as regards Amazon and McDonald's.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by qaq on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:19AM (#12389743)
You do understand it's a two way street? There is a trade imbalance between EU and US aprox 30% in favor of EU. If your point of view prevails EU will loose tax revenue and US will gain tax revenue :).
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by dogma1138 on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:07AM (#12390243)
The bigger problem is that it's a two way street within the EU.

The "smaller" economies have to give incentive to large corporations so they could set up shop. Ireland did it with various incentives, Poland, Estonia and the likes are also doing it with others.

Ireland is in the Eurozone so they can't set up their own monetary policy so they can't offer much in terms of favorable interest and conversion rates to large corporations.

If they can't offer tax incentives companies would be less inclined to set up shop in Ireland if their operating costs would be similar to those in Germany or France. English gives Ireland some advantage but it's not nearly as big as people think, the culture in Germany or France is close enough and you can train people to speak English and with the shared market even import a few 1000's Irish to man the phones.

Apple and the other big guys set up their shop in Ireland because the Irish government gave out huge incentive both direct and indirect it provided funding for training and education for its residents to meet the specific requirements that companies like Apple, Google, and Facebook had. It provided financing, loans and tax breaks to those companies to come in and employ Irish workers and it did it because it's the only way it could compete with the likes of Germany.

Tax loopholes are bad, laws that prevent smaller countries from being competitive are even worse, an equal playing field works when the players are equal, when they aren't "equality" is only advantageous to the strong and established players.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by themihai on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:28AM (#12389851)
How is that? Does US has sweetheart deals with EU companies? I highly doubt.
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by twoodfin on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:00AM (#12390167)
Of course it does. Volkswagen has gotten hundreds of millions of dollars worth of incentives from the state of Tennessee for its Chattanooga plant, for example.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/business/aroundregion/sto...

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by themihai on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:42AM (#12390573)
I think it's a bit different because it looks like an investment from the government(i.e. public-private partnerships) not a tax break.
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by qaq on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @11:01AM (#12390740)
"Combined with other property tax breaks, TVA incentives, road projects and other potential tax credits, Volkswagen could qualify for more than $300 million of grants"

what is different about this?

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by themihai on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @11:12AM (#12390853)
Indeed that's the case though I can't say that I agree with them. The main reason is because these 'special' deals stifle competition and I think that's what the EC rule is all about. I guess it's legal in the US but that doesn't make it "right"(at least in the EU) so I don't mind if the US would tax EU companies more. It would be a win-win for the most of the citizens(EU and US).
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by qaq on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @11:21AM (#12390938)
It would be Net loss for EU.
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by themihai on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @11:43AM (#12391151)
I think it would be a win for ordinary citizens(both EU and US) and perhaps each individual state too(unless you consider tax a bad thing) because the taxes help the governments to develop the infrastructure(i.e. schools, logistics etc) thus they can create more value.

I have doubts that these MNCs help the society that much to be eligible for these tax breaks. They are not charities... The loss for the EU as a economic partner is negligible.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by sangnoir on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:16AM (#12390350)
> A lot of Europeans (me included) are not at all happy to see massively profitable companies operating in Europe without paying practically any taxes.

From the letter, it seems Apple thinks it should be paying taxes in California rather than were the profits are coming from (the EU). Excepts from the letter: "In Apple’s case, nearly all of our research and development takes place in California, so the vast majority of our profits are taxed in the United States."

The second half of the sentence seems to be a non-sequitur, or intentional misdirection -nothing about it follows from the first half.

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by JBlue42 on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:27AM (#12390453)
I think they should be paying taxes in California too. Seems they would rather not.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/business/apples-tax-strate...

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by SixSigma on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:58AM (#12390152)
Current EU president, Jean Claude Juncker, was the architect of much of the corporate tax avoidance scams for those very same companies, e.g. Amazon

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3688861/Jean-Claude-...

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by bgarbiak on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @07:17PM (#12394730)
You are right, except that Juncker is not the current, but the former EU president.
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by SixSigma on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @09:22AM (#12398071)
He has been president since 1 November 2014 and the presidency is in 5 year terms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Comm...

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by pjmlp on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:17AM (#12389735)
Agree, we should take them all down.
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by notahacker on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:58AM (#12390149)
The EU has been pursuing companies, including domestically based ones, under "illegal state aid" rules for years. Why should US tech companies get special dispensation to avoid repaying state aid ruled illegal that the likes of Real Madrid and Estonian Air (which went bankrupt when faced with the repayments) didn't?
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by glenndebacker on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @10:06AM (#12390236)
"especially since the EU has had it out for US tech companies for awhile now"

Sorry but this is typical American FUD, European companies are scrutinised on the same terms and when breaking the law or dodging stuff are getting (high) fines as well.

It is not Europe's fault that this kind of news doesn't find its way in the US... .

Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by creshal on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:05AM (#12389650)
Bullshit. Yes, all MNCs are dodging taxes where they can, but it's not like their finances are so easy that all you need is One Weird Trick and poof!, gone are the taxes. One of the multitude of measures Apple (and apparently nobody else) used was found illegal. The rest aren't, and Ireland is still a tax haven compared to the rest of Europe.
Re:A Message to the Apple Community in Europe by the_mitsuhiko on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:17AM (#12389733)
> It seems hard to believe that Apple was receiving special treatment when practically every MNC has been using this very same loophole.

Right. MNC have, but local companies had no way to do that. That's the crux of the issue. In fact, some people started an inquiry how to replicate that scheme.