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Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by Jerry2 on Monday July 18, 2016 @02:39AM (#12113532)
Andy Hertzfeld recollects how Macintosh team dissected the new IBM PC and what they thought of donkey.bas:

http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story...

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by dingo_bat on Monday July 18, 2016 @03:45AM (#12113697)
Wow, that's a salty article!
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by ebbv on Monday July 18, 2016 @08:24AM (#12114625)
I don't think salty is the right word. Salt implies some kind of frustration and I don't think that's accurate here.

I'd call it an honest, judgmental article.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by segmondy on Monday July 18, 2016 @08:57AM (#12114763)
salty is slang for "envious"
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by o0-0o on Monday July 18, 2016 @09:29AM (#12114911)
"Throwing salt" can also be used to mean "casting dispersions", as it were. I think the article tosses a bunch of salt towards Bill Gates, but who knows what the motivation was. I'm guess when properly confused, you might just throw some salt for luck, and end up looking salty yourself. :)

Edit: I'm talking about the author throwing salt, not any of the posters here.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday July 18, 2016 @10:18AM (#12115148)
I have to do this! I believe you mean "casting aspersions."
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by HemanHeartYou on Monday July 18, 2016 @01:34PM (#12116634)
I always considered salty to mean the act of being bitter or resentful.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by dahart on Monday July 18, 2016 @12:34PM (#12116135)
That's an interesting piece of history, and certainly demonstrates a little bit of the competitive atmosphere, if nothing else.

Donkey was a 'hello world' of graphics with basic, it wasn't a game. Even as a kid, playing it never lasted more than a few seconds. Critiquing it as though it's a serious game gives this code too much credit and makes Hertzfeld look bad too- taking it seriously is almost as funny to me as the game is. For what it is, a code example, having a better game would have detracted significantly from it's value.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by lanevorockz on Monday July 18, 2016 @05:01AM (#12113929)
Agree with the article, the code is not to be proud of. One thing about the Macintosh, it was better but the price was way higher. Most people stayed with the z80s that costed a fraction and were as good for games.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by kabdib on Monday July 18, 2016 @09:03AM (#12114793)
The Mac folks understood a lot more about personal computers than the IBM folks. For instance, the graphics hardware on the Mac wasn't much to write home about, but the PC's graphics was unbelievable garbage that had no hope of performing well (it probably set back GUI development on the PC by five years). The Mac's sound wasn't great, but the PC had a speaker hooked to a TTL port, with the same engineering sophistication as the backup alarm on a garbage truck. Decent sound on the PC finally became real and relatively well adopted in the early 1990s.

On the PC there were a lot of fights about standard ways to do things that just worked on the Mac: Memory expansion (that was a whole industry right there), graphics, networking, mice. Even the CPU needed a turbo button to work correctly. Just about the only piece of the PC that universally worked and didn't beg for improvement was the keyboard.

So you can argue that the "crappy PC" spawned a bunch of industries to fix things, while the Mac, which was a lot closer to perfection, only spawned small businesses to satisfy niche needs. Apple nearly died in the 1990s because the alternatives finally caught up to them, a decade later, and Apple couldn't satisfy the computing industry alone. Still can't, doesn't try.

But I had a PC (256K, two floppies) and I had a Mac, and I sold the Mac because I couldn't develop software on it without going crazy (early Mac development was pretty painful; at one point I was seriously considering FORTH, and I hate FORTH).

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by ArkyBeagle on Monday July 18, 2016 @09:39AM (#12114956)
The PC was much more used as a replacement for things previously done by minicomputers, at least in my field of vision. Just the differential in cost made for quite a business model.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday July 18, 2016 @10:23AM (#12115176)
PC had a speaker hooked to a TTL port, with the same engineering sophistication as the backup alarm on a garbage truck

While true, the quality of sound achievable this way is a matter of software. There are many programs that achieved excellent sound quality, playing music even with just a speaker and a TTL drive.

Remember, the simplest DAC is PWM into a low-pass filter.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by kragen on Monday July 18, 2016 @01:25PM (#12116556)
A couple of years back, I burned out a friend's tweeters by hooking up an Arduino's 31.25kHz PWM to his stereo system. Worked fine at first, but it eventually melted his tweeters. I figured the stereo would low-pass-filter the input for me, and I paid the price.

The PC speaker didn't have PWM; it had a square-wave generator with adjustable frequency. Very few 1980s programs achieved anything even approaching decent sound quality using the PC speaker, although by the 90s, CPUs were fast enough that it was reasonably feasible. In the late 90s, I used to patch my Linux kernel with an unofficial driver that provided arbitrary PCM output via the PC speaker. It was glitchy if I left interrupts disabled during IDE disk accesses, which was the default at the time due to some buggy IDE devices that would sometimes corrupt data if you didn't. Fortunately, mine wasn't one of them.

I feel like PDM is just as simple as PWM and often gives better quality, and an R-2R DAC like a Covox is arguably just as simple as PWM and gives dramatically better quality. You need a few more pins, though, or a 74595.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday July 18, 2016 @03:54PM (#12117680)
Interesting!

I must be thinking of a different computer then. Perhaps my Radio Shack CoCo. I remember some small computer from the mid-late 80's producing really good music with just a logic output driving the speaker. Was sure it was the IBM/clone.

One of the nice things is that I have original cloth-bound IBM PC 5150 Technical Manuals in my basement so I can actually go look up the schematics of what's driving the speaker :-)

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by kabdib on Monday July 18, 2016 @11:05PM (#12119285)
Well, maybe. It's still bang-bang control, and to get decent quality you'd have to dedicate the processor to bit-banging the port. With the Mac you just filled in a buffer that got DMA'd along with the video. Not great, but at least you could do waveforms using a slice of the CPU.

The PC was built to beep, and that's about it. Anything you got out of it past that was painful and used a lot of CPU.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by BashiBazouk on Monday July 18, 2016 @11:05AM (#12115459)
But keep in mind that this was while the Mac was still in development. The Apple ][ was a great game machine. That is what they are probably comparing it to. I was in high school at this time and the library had a whole wall of PCs and one Apple ][. Huge crowd playing Castle Wolfenstein on the Apple, no one touching the PCs as they only had Flight Simulator on them. In a vacuum, Donkey is not too bad, but compared to Castle Wolfenstein and the other good games on the Apple, I can see why it got a meh...
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by spacecowboy_lon on Monday July 18, 2016 @05:34AM (#12114028)
The IBM wasn't cheap when it came out - when comapared to a PET or Apple ][

I recall working on a Grey Import IBP Pc in the UK - Our electronics shop built an inverter to convert 240v to 110.

[dead]
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by sctb on Monday July 18, 2016 @02:04PM (#12116926)
This comment violates the HN guidelines. Please don't do this here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by coldtea on Monday July 18, 2016 @04:28AM (#12113833)
>Andy Hertzfeld sounds like a sore loser.

A proven winner, with significant contributions to the field would be more accurate.

>Why should anyone care what he thinks about games?

It's not what he thinks about games in general, it's what he think about a particular historical artifact that happens to be a game. And people care about his opinion on those times (the website linked is quite popular) because he was an important contributor to that era of computing and the early PC industry.

>Macs suck for games and they always have.

Only for people whose appreciation for games is restricted to the latest, full-blast on the GPU, AAA titles.

>Every piece of software he's written has been a second rate failure.

And it's HE who sounds like a "sore loser"? Oh, the irony.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by busyant on Monday July 18, 2016 @07:53AM (#12114518)
There's something unseemly about ripping on other people.

I know it's bill gates, but Hertzfeld comes across as the kind of guy who enjoys making people feel small.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by versteegen on Monday July 18, 2016 @08:30AM (#12114645)
Seriously? I've ready almost every story on folklore.org, and this is the only instance I can remember where he puts anyone down -- it sticks out in my memory for that very reason.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by busyant on Monday July 18, 2016 @11:19AM (#12115565)
I'm simply basing my statement on my reading of that one story. I haven't read anything else on that site and I don't know the person at all.

I think the original poster was simply responding to the "vibe" of that essay.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by chris_va on Monday July 18, 2016 @10:30AM (#12115222)
I worked with Andy for a while. He is one of the nicest people I know, and couldn't hurt a fly.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by Nullabillity on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @07:27PM (#12125725)
> Only for people whose appreciation for games is restricted to the latest, full-blast on the GPU, AAA titles.

The one common complaint for all game developers seems to be about Apple's nightmare-inducing OpenGL implementation.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by 91298191 on Monday July 18, 2016 @04:28AM (#12113837)
Is it possible to get rid of the mentality that anyone who criticizes anything is a hater, a loser or suffering from the sour grapes syndrome?
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by ralfd on Monday July 18, 2016 @04:00AM (#12113757)
> Macs suck for games and they always have

Not in the 80s. PCs were DOS machines for the office and if you wanted to play a game the Mac, Atari or Amiga were much nicer plattforms.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by jonathanstrange on Monday July 18, 2016 @04:46AM (#12113889)
The C64 was vastly superior for games, and the Amiga anyway. Macs never played a role for gaming at this time, because of their price and distribution channels. Only fairly rich professors and graphic artists were able to afford one.

Ataris were never really that good for gaming either, but they were used a lot by pro audio folks. They had superior midi capabilities and programs.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by Narishma on Monday July 18, 2016 @06:58AM (#12114315)
Disagree about the Ataris. They were very popular gaming platforms at the time.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by busterarm on Monday July 18, 2016 @08:55AM (#12114751)
Not the ST, which would be the competition we're talking about vs the C64, etc.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by mediaserf on Monday July 18, 2016 @11:59AM (#12115843)
You can't compare the ST and C64.

C64's competition were the Atari 400, 800, XL and XE lines. Most games came out for both platforms. Atari's player missle system was both an advantage and a disadvantage in some respects.

The ST and Amiga were competitors but completely different platforms than their respective predecessors.

When you're talking Mac - the Apple II would have been the contemporary of the C64 and Atari 8-bit lines. There were games on Apple computers as well, but I suspect not as many. They were completely dysfunctional and the Apple IIgs was a really fun machine.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by mediaserf on Monday July 18, 2016 @03:18PM (#12117431)
*weren't - I meant that Apple computers _weren't_ completely dysfunctional..
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by busterarm on Monday July 18, 2016 @03:33PM (#12117544)
I was a Commodore kid, but the one thing Apple had that it didn't was The Robot Odyssey.

Hell of a game.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by ido on Monday July 18, 2016 @10:32AM (#12115231)
A matter of geography - the ST was very popular in europe (as was the amiga).
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by Narishma on Monday July 18, 2016 @03:05PM (#12117370)
The ST was competing with the Amiga, not the C64.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by kriro on Monday July 18, 2016 @07:35AM (#12114453)
The Atari ST 1040 was a great gaming platform.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by busterarm on Monday July 18, 2016 @08:57AM (#12114760)
Boy were they unpopular though.

They built a machine to compete with the C64 at the time when Amiga was the new thing.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by scholia on Monday July 18, 2016 @05:16PM (#12118108)
> Boy were they unpopular though

They were popular in Europe, where they were cheap. In fact, in the UK, the 512K Atari ST with mono screen and mouse was slightly cheaper upgrading a 128K Mac to 512K (£750 vs £800).

The Atari ST was slightly faster than the Mac, had a better monochrome screen, and could run all Mac software, albeit not legally. (You either bought a plug-n cartridge that took Mac ROMs or used MacBongo, a ripped-off version loaded from disk.)

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by scholia on Monday July 18, 2016 @05:09PM (#12118078)
> Ataris were never really that good for gaming either

Atari practically owned the gaming business with its home games consoles, and its first home computers -- the Atari 400 and 800, launched in 1979 -- were the best games machines around at the time.

The Atari ST was the one the audio folks used, and it did play games, just not as well as the Amiga.

Curiously enough, the Amiga was developed by staff from Atari, while the Atari ST was developed by staff from Commodore. (This was after Jack Tramiel left Commodore and bought Atari, which he ran with his sons.)

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by izacus on Monday July 18, 2016 @04:08AM (#12113788)
Mac with the monochrome screen? Not really. It did have a few games, but the gaming platforms of the time were your C64s, Spectrums, Ataris, Amigas and other more graphically capable TV units.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by cschep on Monday July 18, 2016 @08:03AM (#12114552)
shufflepuck cafe was uniquely wonderful, even in monochrome! :)
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by Keyframe on Monday July 18, 2016 @09:42AM (#12114965)
Apple/Mac doesn't belong to the list.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by wmil on Monday July 18, 2016 @08:06AM (#12114558)
Dark Castle was pretty impressive in 1986.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjtjVS7VFFY

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by zeveb on Monday July 18, 2016 @03:03PM (#12117358)
> Dark Castle was pretty impressive in 1986.

Honestly, I think that it's still impressive. There was a beauty to those old black-and-white bitmaps that modern engines just don't capture. Same with the icons from back in the day. We've gained an awful lot, but we've also lost something.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by MawNicker on Monday July 18, 2016 @03:49AM (#12113714)
Meh. Sort of. He mostly sounds like someone with experience on both platforms who is surprised by the dominance of the one that he considers inferior. His prominence as a developer isn't relevant. I trust that his ability is sufficient and that his experience with the platforms is actual. He is a suitable person to comment on the contrast between them.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by WalterBright on Monday July 18, 2016 @04:25AM (#12113825)
Many people did dump on the PC as inferior, but it was a marvelous platform for tinkerers of every sort, and tinker they did. The result was a firehose of applications and hardware add-ons of every sort imaginable, including some unimaginably good ones like Doom.

Programmers were utterly amazed by Doom. Nobody had thought that was possible on the PC hardware.

The first PC Flight Simulator was another astonishing piece of engineering.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by coldtea on Monday July 18, 2016 @04:30AM (#12113845)
>The result was a firehose of applications and hardware add-ons of every sort imaginable, including some unimaginably good ones like Doom.

Huh?

Doom was developed on NeXT workstations, under the NEXTSTEP operating system. The Doom game engine was programmed in C, and the editing tools were written in Objective-C. The engine was first compiled with Intel's C compiler for DOS, but later Watcom's C/C++ compiler was used. (Wikipedia)

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by WalterBright on Monday July 18, 2016 @05:17AM (#12113972)
People were amazed at it running on the PC, and running very well.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by coldtea on Monday July 18, 2016 @06:37AM (#12114231)
Yes, but the appeareance of Doom on PC is not because PC was a "tinkerer's platform" as the argument in the parent post goes.

The tinkering part leading to the creation of Doom was done on NeXT.

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by WalterBright on Monday July 18, 2016 @07:03AM (#12114335)
Doom ran under a 32 bit DOS extender, which was created by tinkerers, not Microsoft.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by WalterBright on Monday July 18, 2016 @06:11AM (#12114149)
BTW, I would also build the software on a better machine that had memory protection, get it all working correctly, then port it to DOS. That would greatly cut down on the debugging time.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by webtechgal on Monday July 18, 2016 @09:24AM (#12114891)
> The first PC Flight Simulator was another astonishing piece of engineering.

True. I remember the feedback a WW2 vet pilot gave after testing PC FS. It went something like 'if flying on a PC got any more realistic, you'd need a pilot's license to do it.' !!

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by jhbadger on Monday July 18, 2016 @06:43AM (#12114258)
"Microsoft" Flight Simulator on the PC was actually a version of Sublogic's Flight Simulator for the Apple ][ (although it gets complicated because the classic setting of Chicago's Meigs Field was on the PC first and then backported to the Apple ][ version). But if you were impressed that the flight simulator ran on a 4.77 Mhz PC, how much more amazing that it ran on a 1 Mhz Apple ][?
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by eggy on Monday July 18, 2016 @04:29AM (#12113840)
I agree, and I think that is a common problem with purely technical people. They don't include all of the other important factors: affordability, support (by the company and number of people around you familiar with the system), and many others.

The Amiga sound and graphics chips blew other systems out of the water technically, and did good with the consumer offerings like the A500, but aside from a niche in the video editing market (Toaster on A1000/A2000), Macs and PCs swamped it in sales numbers.

I have had a lot of systems starting in 1978 with an all-in-one CPM PET with a cassette drive to load programs, a very small green text terminal, and 8K RAM. I paid $800 for it used, and another $850 for a 32K Ram upgrade the year after. You could 'pop the hood' like an old American muscle car, and check the board inside, and install the RAM card. I wrote a horse racing game in 1979 using just ASCII characters with random trots, and an odds and bettings system for my two horse-loving, OTB-visting parents.

I have only really lusted after three machines: A Lisp Machine, Silicon Graphics workstation, and the NeXT machine, again all technically brilliant, but not the biggest sellers. Pricey because of that.

The best tech doesn't always win by default, and that's not always a bad thing (as I once thought).

Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by Keyframe on Monday July 18, 2016 @01:56PM (#12116845)
Funny memory. We bought an SGI machine for when clients were around (doing 3D graphics and video compositing). In the backroom we did it all on Amigas and Lightwave. Clients thought it was all done on SGI/Softimage - so it must be good! It would've been (better) if we could afford as much workstations and application seats as we would've wanted. I still have two SGI's that work. It feels like owning a vintage Ferrari or something, even though nowhere near the monetary value.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by eggy on Monday July 18, 2016 @05:48PM (#12118245)
Where was this? I worked in NYC, and I landed a non-paying, non-intern learning position at a 3D animation company using SGI with Prisms, which is now Houdini. I loved the design, and Irix was great! I recall thinking that the screens were so hi-res ;)
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by Keyframe on Monday July 18, 2016 @09:33PM (#12118989)
It was in Croatia, Europe. Same story all over the world though (at least where I was at). And, they were so "high-res". At the time, I believe only screen I saw on a workstation that had such a high resolution was on one HP-UX machine. They were also a great sight. Shame about later models (Octane) being such loud beasts though. Not really for desks.
Re:Donkey – A computer game included with early versions of ... by eggy on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @04:43AM (#12127626)
Yeah, I would not be able to read the print on my SGI today without my reading glasses! Prisms had some many little windows and parameters. The CHOPs(?), procedural animation stuff, a terminal, etc...