News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by pavs on Saturday July 16, 2016 @01:46AM (#12105388)
I don't understand why Cloudflare is used by so many sites. I would guess that for 95% of it's users, it doesn't solve any real problem.

http://www.slashgeek.net/2016/06/07/cloudflare-making-intern...

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by unchaotic on Saturday July 16, 2016 @03:41AM (#12105607)
They've got a very compelling free tier to get you roped in. Works great as a CDN, integrated SSL, great interface, DDoS protection / firewall, page rules - there are just a few of the useful features.

Is there a more comprehensive free tier anywhere else ?

P.S. I'm not saying they are the best choice. They are simply too convenient & comprehensive to get started. With a single click your site can "claim" to be HTTPS even though the upstream connection "may not" be encrypted.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by joepie91_ on Saturday July 16, 2016 @10:17AM (#12106393)
Right, but this is the pretty much precisely the problem. It's just the Nth generation of "just centralize the internet through us and we'll take care of everything for you", but this time marketed at startups. All the usual problems with centralization still apply.

(It's still not really "DDoS protection", by the way. They just don't offer that on their free plan.)

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by manigandham on Saturday July 16, 2016 @01:50PM (#12107211)
The internet is already very centralized far beyond a single CDN company. All you need to do is look at the number of backbone providers and ISPs serving the vast majority of people in the world.

CloudFlare being a CDN has very little lock-in and is incredibly easy to move away from, so it speaks to how much value they deliver with their product that they have so many customers.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by giovannibajo1 on Saturday July 16, 2016 @11:16AM (#12106607)
It only matters because they have no competitors, otherwise you'd say the same applies to AWS hosting the origin servers, and the databases of those very startups likely to use Cloudflare.

In the end, if there were true competitors, it probably wouldn't matter much, they would be just one popular service that handed your data like many others

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by manigandham on Saturday July 16, 2016 @03:35PM (#12107582)
They also have plenty of competitors, the CDN space has more companies than the ISP space so the internet is already more centralized at a much deeper level. This a silly claim by the OP.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by aorth on Saturday July 16, 2016 @05:03AM (#12105727)
DNS!
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by api on Saturday July 16, 2016 @12:34PM (#12106890)
Amazon Route 53 is better.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by PuffinBlue on Saturday July 16, 2016 @01:26PM (#12107113)
It isn't free, it's more complex to set up and it uses some of its own terminology like 'Hosted Zones' that need to be understood. Just 3 ways in which it's not better.

It's probably better if you define the comparison in terms of flexibility/control etc etc, but simply stating it's 'better' doesn't really add anything to the conversation.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by api on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:48PM (#12107420)
We host a big domain there and it's like five bucks a month. Of course we don't use the more expensive features just basic DNS and the API.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by drdaeman on Saturday July 16, 2016 @05:47AM (#12105806)
DDoS protection on a budget.

A typical hosting provider would shut down the port if they see any heavy ingress traffic. Or maybe won't shut it down if their network can tolerate it, but won't bother to filter either, so the server would be overwhelmed and down anyway. There are providers that help, but they cost extra.

CloudFlare, on the other hand, is $20/mo (or even free). Not much protection at this level, but it well-scares kiddies away with "uh, it's behind the CloudFlare", and if someone still hates you (and you haven't screwed up concealing where the real server is), you can upgrade the plan and still try to remain online.

Don't see any other value, except, maybe, for caching/CDN stuff. TLS is done wrong (as described in the OP article), DNS management is a toy (the old fart in me always prefers the zonefiles), minification should be done (and we do) at packaging phase - not runtime and WAF doesn't have any details about what it does (half of the rules are, basically, "enable the we-dont-tell-you-what-it-does rule and hope it won't break your site in a subtle manner").

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by joepie91_ on Saturday July 16, 2016 @09:41AM (#12106289)
The article mentions several alternatives that are less than $20/month for actual DDoS mitigation.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by gkoberger on Saturday July 16, 2016 @01:55AM (#12105397)
For me, it's so I don't have to deal with SSL. Sure, SSL isn't hard... but I have thousands of things more important to do than worry about where my keys are and when it expires. There's some nice bonus features like redirects, error pages, etc.

It takes 10 seconds to sign up, is cheap, makes something complicated very simple, and offers immediate value. Anyone building a developer tool should use CloudFlare as a case study.

EDIT: To the person who replied to me: Heroku, Shopify, and other similar services already serve their sites as HTTPS; Cloudflare just lets you throw HTTPS on a custom domain. It's HTTPS from top to bottom, don't worry.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by yoo1I on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:05AM (#12105419)
If I understand you correctly your setup is exactly what's described in the article:

  your_server <--- no TLS ---> CloudFlare <--- TLS ---> Browser

If that's the case you are putting your users at risk, by pretending there is a TLS connection to your server when really it's only to CloudFlare. The connection from CloudFlare to your server is completely unprotected and is routed over the public internet.

That's not an acceptable setup. If I am communicating to a service that is TLS protected and I see the little green icon in the top left of the bar, I should be confident that my data that I am communicating to you is not routed over the public internet unprotected!

You say this:

> makes something complicated very simple

You made it simple by simply not doing it

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by rtpg on Saturday July 16, 2016 @03:56AM (#12105638)
Well, you've reduced the risk of someone MITMing your users connections. So now your risk is of someone MITMing CloudFlare's connection.

My impression is that this will rule out most coffee shop owners from tampering with the connection through their router. Even if state actors can still get at your content, this is still better than "no SSL whatsoever".

Honestly, though, for anything beyond "static HTML on some server somewhere", basic SSL conf. is a 30 minute one-time job...

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by mayhew on Saturday July 16, 2016 @11:25AM (#12106643)
> this is still better than "no SSL whatsoever"

This breaks the expectation that if a website is using HTTPS the connection is encrypted from source to destination. I'm not sure it's better as it's effectively giving the user a false sense of security.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by baby on Saturday July 16, 2016 @12:42PM (#12106927)
I'm not sure this is the reputation of HTTPS: people have no idea what HTTPS means besides "the website is secure". It's your job, as a server admin, to choose how you deal with your infrastructure. If you choose to not use TLS between you and cloudflare, then you made a decision (that is fundamentally better than no TLS at all). If something happen, because Cloudflare, or because MITM between CF and you, then it is not on the user but on you.

FWIW a lot of infrastructure terminate TLS at the load balancer as well. HTTPS does not mean e2e encryption. HTTPS means you're securely talking to their infrastructure.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by Vendan on Saturday July 16, 2016 @01:49PM (#12107205)
You may think it's fundamentally better then no TLS, and it may be on some levels, but where it's displayed to the user, it's seen as "This is HTTPS", with no mention of "it switches to HTTP for the last half of the trip". I don't want my credit card details and login info routing over the public internet in plaintext, but thanks to CF, I can't tell if they are or aren't. Oh sure, I won't get mitm'd by a coffee shop, but that "gain" is less then the loss of "oh, it's got the lock, that means it's secure"
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by baby on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:30PM (#12107361)
But an infrastructure can make bad decisions at any point. They could terminate the tls connection at a wrong node, they could store your data unencrypted, they could... All of this is not on the user. It's on the company. And if they do decide to use Cloudflare this way it is their architecture decision.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by Vendan on Sunday July 17, 2016 @08:40PM (#12112635)
Yes, that is all understood. The fact remains, however, that they are basically subverting what that lock means. It's ALL ON THE COMPANY, but I can't tell as a user that they have broken it, and in fact, my browser is SAYING it's secure. The company is deciding to make it lie. THAT IS A PROBLEM.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by 0xmohit on Saturday July 16, 2016 @04:17AM (#12105662)

  your_server <--- no TLS ---> CloudFlare <--- TLS ---> Browser
So there's a MITM here -- Cloudflare.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by true_religion on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:23AM (#12105461)
I don't do this, but I believe you can use Cloudflare with self-signed certificates on your server.

Cloudflare essentially gives you free SAN certs at the edge nodes, which is something you typically have to pay for (to the tune of $$$$s) with other CDNs. Most CDNs give you the more typical SNI certs.

Also, as an aside, isn't it more likely for an end-user to get MtM'd than for that to happen to data centers?

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by pfg on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:41AM (#12105498)
There's no such thing as a SNI certificate. SNI is a TLS extension allowing clients to send the hostname as part of the Client Hello, which allows the server to pick the right certificate for the hostname being requested. Without SNI, you're essentially limited to one certificate per IP address (which is what makes things expensive for CDNs if you need to support clients without SNI).

CloudFlare's free plan uses SNI.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by true_religion on Saturday July 16, 2016 @05:26AM (#12105767)
Their $20/month plan appears to offer SAN, so you can support clients without SNI.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by pfg on Saturday July 16, 2016 @06:03AM (#12105828)
Their free plan uses SAN certificates too. The difference is that they do "one (shared) SAN certificate per IP" for paid plans, as opposed to "multiple (shared) SAN certificates per IP" on the free plan, which requires SNI to work.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by mr_potato_face on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:48AM (#12105512)
To your aside, MITM seems more likely to happen to the end-user, but it is possible to happen at the Cloudflare-->Website side. We already know that the NSA logs all traffic going over certain backbone routers[1], and that some ISPs are modifying non-HTTPS connections[2]. So if your traffic bounces through certain "bad" networks between Cloudflare and your site, who knows what happens.

Relatedly, Tor recommends all users use HTTPS[3], as otherwise the connection from the exit node to the target site is vulnerable to MITM. Given that there are malicious exit nodes[4], seems like a good idea. But, as the article brings to light, that still doesn't make any guarantees of safety.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A [2] e.g. http://www.infoworld.com/article/2925839/net-neutrality/code... [3] https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#CanExitNodesEave... [4] e.g. http://www.cs.kau.se/philwint/spoiled_onions/ but plenty of other sources

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by true_religion on Saturday July 16, 2016 @05:29AM (#12105771)
When it comes to security, the question of "whom is my attacker?" really determines how much invenstment you make in securing your service.

Many online providers don't care if the NSA is slurping up their data. For example, do you think that Macy's online is going to stick out their necks to protect clothing transactions from the government?

Nope.

Personally, I've seen end-users more worried about MtM close to their endpoint, such as their employers or schools scanning their traffic. They're not trying to evade governments here.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by tzs on Saturday July 16, 2016 @03:13AM (#12105567)
> If that's the case you are putting your users at risk, by pretending there is a TLS connection to your server when really it's only to CloudFlare. The connection from CloudFlare to your server is completely unprotected and is routed over the public internet.

How much of a risk is this in practice, assuming that when I do illegal things I'm very careful to only use sites that I know are end-to-end encrypted, and so for sites going through CloudFlare I'm only worried about criminals snooping for identity theft or credit card theft or similar purposes? [1]

I'd guess that criminals are overwhelmingly more likely to manage to intercept things near the browser side of things than near the server side of things. Probably most likely would be by taking over a public facing wifi router. I'd expect that getting in between CloudFlare and the server would take resources beyond most non-government actors.

[1] Note: I am NOT making an "if you aren't doing anything illegal, you don't need to worry about government snooping" argument. However, there is plenty of information that I consider confidential in the sense that I do not want it generally known, but where the government already knows that information. So, if some site asked me for such information and I needed to decide if they are providing adequate security I would only need to consider non-government snoopers because government snoopers already have the information.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by angry-hacker on Saturday July 16, 2016 @04:38AM (#12105696)
Well, maybe the whole encryption / ssl system is broken if it's possible to setup the system like that?
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by jraedisch on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:22AM (#12105458)
What about using self-signed (and thereby untrusted) certificates?
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by narsil on Saturday July 16, 2016 @03:03AM (#12105546)
Why do this when letsencrypt.org provides free trusted SSL certs?
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by brianwawok on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:09PM (#12107300)
There are missing edge cases with this.

Say I want to serve a static HTML website from a Google cloud storage over SSL. No way to do this for free with let's encrypt. 1 click and free with cloud flare.

Is there MITM chance between cloud flare and Google? Yes. For a static website with no login or input from users, seems safer than any free alternative I know of.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by true_religion on Saturday July 16, 2016 @04:15PM (#12107722)
Doesn't Google offer a generic domain for you to use, like amazon has s3.amazon.com with some information about your username in the URL or subdomain?
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by jlgaddis on Saturday July 16, 2016 @05:53PM (#12108024)
Even if they do, how do you expect to get a valid (i.e. trusted) certificate for an FQDN that ends with ".google.com"?
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by brianwawok on Sunday July 17, 2016 @05:16PM (#12111869)
No you host from your own domain.

https://cloud.google.com/storage/docs/hosting-static-website

Gives you a site at your name.com

Only missing link is the HTTPS which you get with cloud flare

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by true_religion on Saturday July 16, 2016 @06:08PM (#12108067)
I'd expect they'd use something like star-certs, and give you a heyuser.storagegcd.com
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by jlgaddis on Sunday July 17, 2016 @02:21PM (#12111120)
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "star-cert"?
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by true_religion on Sunday July 17, 2016 @08:15PM (#12112559)
Oh I think I just used a bit of jargon there. It's canonically called a Wildcard Certificate [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcard_certificate

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by cm2187 on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:51AM (#12105518)
If CloudFlare pins the certificates then fine, but if it doesn't, you might as well leave the traffic unencrypted.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by toast0 on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:35AM (#12105482)
> That's not an acceptable setup. If I am communicating to a service that is TLS protected and I see the little green icon in the top left of the bar, I should be confident that my data that I am communicating to you is not routed over the public internet unprotected!

If you see that little green icon, you can be confident that the server you're communicating with has done the bare minimum to satisfy the browser gods today, so that the https everywhere people will stop yelling. It's never meant anything else. It's best to assume you're talking to a TLS terminator which communicates to the HTTP endpoint via AMPRnet (unencrypted IP via amateur radio).

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by sqldba on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:20AM (#12105446)
The browser indicator is working properly according to the standard. That's what standards are - you don't get to complain about intent just because it doesn't mean to YOU what YOU WANT it to mean.

Traditionally certificates have been very expensive for little unpaid blogs to have, and difficult to setup. LetsEncrypt is a very new solution but it will be a long time until hosts support it; remembering most of us are on simple cPanel setups so until it's baked INTO cPanel and hosts have upgraded it's unusable for a majority of the web. Just because we can run a web site doesn't mean we can hack layers into web internals.

This is in part the fault of LE's idiotically short and crippling certificate lifespan. Lord knows why they did it but they knew it would screw us from the beginning. "Hey you should automate this, but seeing as you can't, no cert for you."

Google prefers https content. Cloudflare gives small people a better slice of those readers.

Ultimately nobody gives a shit that you're reading the semi-encrypted content I publish. NOBODY. Oh no you read how a database works? If that's illegal where you live then I think you're in much deeper survival problems than whether your browser button is magically misleading you (which it isn't; it's a guide, one that reveals itself once you click through, which is again exactly how it was designed).

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by reefoctopus on Saturday July 16, 2016 @01:54AM (#12105395)
How about because they serve hundred of terabytes of our images for $20/month? It has been well worth the money.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by pavs on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:01AM (#12105405)
I am talking about free users.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by detaro on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:23AM (#12105460)
They'll serve quite a lot of traffic for those as well. I've seen quite a few people recommend a combination of Amazon S3 and Cloudfront for hosting static sites.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by grhmc on Saturday July 16, 2016 @11:14AM (#12106590)
Cloudfront is AWS's CDN, and isn't related to CloudFlare.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by detaro on Saturday July 16, 2016 @11:24AM (#12106640)
Typo. meant Cloudflare.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by angry-hacker on Saturday July 16, 2016 @11:36AM (#12106679)
The same applies to free tier, I need 5x less server power thanks to cloudflare and I get it for free! Including other useful things.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by api on Saturday July 16, 2016 @12:37PM (#12106903)
That can be said of lots of stuff. Developers can be marketed to just like anyone else, and cargo culting is very common.

"You don't use CloudFlare? Are you enterprise?"

Amazon is also adept at this. Many of their database and storage services are great but EC2 is overpriced and they overcharge for bandwidth. I see loads of people who only use them for compute and who would be much better served by Digital Ocean or Vultr. But you're not a serious deployment if you don't over-provision on Amazon... and then put the whole thing behind CloudFlare.

Go to a dev or IT conference and you can see this marketing in full force. The style of it reminds me a lot of performance automotive marketing that you would see around a Nascar event.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by anexprogrammer on Saturday July 16, 2016 @04:15PM (#12107723)
It just gets in the way for users these days.

The periodic pre-load "checking your browser" delay, and the absolutely infuriating, and almost constant, captcha makes it a positively user hostile service.

I won't use the net from public wifi without VPN active, which now means cloudflare asks for that captcha for every site in its control, and re-asks every 30 minutes. A year ago it was rare for the captcha to pop up, now it's near permanent.

Most of the time now I'll just go elsewhere.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by danneu on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:01AM (#12105406)
They cloak my origin.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by zepolen on Saturday July 16, 2016 @06:15AM (#12105856)
Tell me your domain, I'll tell you your origin in 5 seconds.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by danneu on Saturday July 16, 2016 @06:15PM (#12108087)
Explain?

The only ways I can think of finding the origin involve user error:

    1. DNS history lookup where they're still using the same IP address.
    2. Scanning the internet where they aren't ignoring non-Cloudflare 
       requests.
You can file an abuse or DMCA request to Cloudflare, but they only reveal your provider.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by mikecke on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:35AM (#12105486)
CloudFlare passes your origin.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by manigandham on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:40AM (#12105497)
How so?
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by dylz on Saturday July 16, 2016 @03:13AM (#12105566)
If you are on free/pro (ddos protection starts on business+ iirc) they will just pass through your A record unproxied after attacked
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by manigandham on Saturday July 16, 2016 @03:18AM (#12105575)
All plans have protection, free has lower limits but still substantial. Pro has higher limits and Business is unlimited. Given the pricing, that's very fair.

They won't automatically unproxy you without notice. If you're getting attacked, you need to pay for the level of protection you need.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by joepie91_ on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:39PM (#12107389)
> They won't automatically unproxy you without notice.

Author here. They've done precisely that to me in the past. I don't have first-hand experience with their current policies (if they have changed at all), but still hear similar stories with some regularity.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by danneu on Saturday July 16, 2016 @06:29PM (#12108124)
The only thing I've seen these days is Cloudflare lifting your service to "Under Attack mode" accompanied with an email saying that they will suspend your account if you toggle it off during the attack.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by manigandham on Saturday July 16, 2016 @03:37PM (#12107587)
Since this is a core part of their business, I don't see how they would risk it with this tactic. If you have evidence, let's see the details.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by joepie91_ on Saturday July 16, 2016 @06:24PM (#12108110)
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by danneu on Saturday July 16, 2016 @06:34PM (#12108132)
Looks like it wasn't until 2013 that Cloudflare became serious about origin protection and a more universal anti-DDoS service: https://blog.cloudflare.com/ddos-prevention-protecting-the-o... https://blog.cloudflare.com/the-ddos-that-almost-broke-the-i...

I'd like to know if people are still getting that email.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by tyho on Saturday July 16, 2016 @03:08AM (#12105559)
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by detaro on Saturday July 16, 2016 @03:09AM (#12105560)
wrong direction. Reveals client IP to server, not server IP to client.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by NEDM64 on Saturday July 16, 2016 @03:52AM (#12105629)
Free SSL.

Enough reasons for me.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by bigbugbag on Saturday July 16, 2016 @12:53PM (#12106960)
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by manigandham on Saturday July 16, 2016 @03:39PM (#12107592)
These are posts that always repeat the same thing: don't use Flexible SSL. Fine, that's your choice as the site operator to use or not use that option. Why blame the provider for your configuration choice?
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by joepie91_ on Saturday July 16, 2016 @06:27PM (#12108116)
No, they don't. At least one of those posts is specifically about Full SSL, as is my article. You cannot proxy through CloudFlare without an MITM risk, by design. No matter how you configure it.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by manigandham on Saturday July 16, 2016 @07:52PM (#12108349)
Just like every other CDN or network service out there that is a proxy. Using a load balancer from a cloud provider that does TLS termination is the same risk. Of course it's by design because that's just how it works. You can't proxy TLS traffic without being MITM.

Please stop repeating the same exact thing instead of actually understanding what you're talking about, it's just misinformation and FUD at this point. You still havent replied to any of the other questions.

Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by pmlnr on Saturday July 16, 2016 @04:28AM (#12105678)
Letsencrypt?
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by dredmorbius on Saturday July 16, 2016 @06:21AM (#12105864)
TBF that's only just getting started. Sites have been up for a while.
Re:CloudFlare, We Have a Problem by joepie91_ on Saturday July 16, 2016 @02:41PM (#12107398)
While true, StartCom and WoSign have been around for a while (even if they have some shadiness issues of their own).

I wouldn't necessarily hold it against somebody to have picked CloudFlare because of this in the past, but in 2016 it's simply no longer a reason to keep using CF.