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Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by KaiserPro on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @04:42PM (#12082147)
So there are two issues that are touched on here, which are not really expanded enough.

1) farmers everywhere are allowed to use last line/new antibiotics routinely in food production. This is utterly fucking stupid. Whats more brain dead is that its not just china its US and canada. (possibly the EU.) It could be stopped by the FDA withdrawing the license. but no. Too much money.

2) over subscription in private health.

I once listened to a co-worker phone up the Doctor and ask to have "the same antibiotics I had last time for that cold" and get it[1]. She had the fucking snuffles. No consultation, not even bothering to figure out if its even got a hint of bacterial infection.

A placebo would have been more effective. It wouldn't have given her the shits either. Paracetamol is what was needed, as its the only thing that would have made her feel better.

Seriously. yes I know that the customer is always right, but don't fucking dish out drugs like sweets. My old age, and my children's health are dependent on those drugs.

[1] yes this was in the USA, santa monica to be precise. Yes I'm british. However the prevalence of prescription medication abuse and deaths is a massive fucking warning. Something is horridly wrong with the US's health care system.

What surprises me is with the levels of litigation against doctors, this hasn't seemed to trigger any change in behaviour.

Disclosure: I live with a doctor.

Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by stcredzero on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @04:56PM (#12082227)
1) farmers everywhere are allowed to use last line/new antibiotics routinely in food production. This is utterly fucking stupid.

Basically, it's exactly the worst thing you can possibly do, with regards to what the theory of evolution by natural selection tells us. Then add in what we know about bacteria exchanging genetic material, and it's like we're trying to inactivate all of our antibiotics on purpose.

Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by trhway on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @06:24PM (#12082680)
>Basically, it's exactly the worst thing you can possibly do, with regards to what the theory of evolution by natural selection tells us.

from the half-full glass POV we are just speeding up the natural selection of bacteria resistant humans (it has been going for millenia and got, probably only temporary, delayed for the last 80 years). Also, as a side effect, it can help solve (at least temporarily) the overpopulation issue until the much more smart (wrt. health and Earth resources usage) humans evolve. Basic dialectics at work.

Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by stcredzero on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @07:00PM (#12082834)
from the half-full glass POV we are just speeding up the natural selection of bacteria resistant humans)

Often, what's good for species evolution is really bad for some individuals. What good is a half-full glass to you if you're dead?

Also, as was noted elsewhere in the discussions, evolutionary pressure for bacteria to attain an immunity is high, but pressure to lose one is usually much lower. However, bacteria are small, and such pressure is higher than in more complex celled creatures. "Shelving" antibiotics does work, but would require widespread cooperation and the curbing of feeding antibiotics to livestock.

Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by pmalynin on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @08:14PM (#12083163)
>What good is a half-full glass to you if you're dead?

What bad is it if you're dead?

Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by stcredzero on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @08:22PM (#12083215)
You first!
Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by vacri on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @08:31PM (#12083256)
Having antibiotic failure as the method for arresting the massive human population (7B people) would require carnage that makes World War II (~70M deaths) pale in comparison, even if you correct for the lower global population of the day.
Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by dredmorbius on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @10:38PM (#12083599)
Disease has typically killed more than wars. The Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918 killed 50-100 million people, several percent of the total world population. By comparison, total military and civilian dealths in WWI were about 16 million.
Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by vacri on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @11:51PM (#12083787)
Oh, I agree - I just used WWII as it's a more commonly-understood datapoint. The Spanish Flu epidemic only took a couple of years as well, as opposed to the half-decade of WWII.
Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by trhway on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @11:03PM (#12083657)
why carnage? just some sterilizing effect of some bacterial infection would do it.
Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by vacri on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @11:50PM (#12083783)
People dying of infection is not pretty, especially at scale.
Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by trhway on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:39AM (#12083910)
"sterilizing" means destroying the ability to produce next generation. No dying involved. It may be some very light infection, just with a sterilizing side-effect for example.
Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by fweespeech on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @09:51PM (#12083472)
> from the half-full glass POV we are just speeding up the natural selection of bacteria resistant humans (it has been going for millenia and got, probably only temporary, delayed for the last 80 years). Also, as a side effect, it can help solve (at least temporarily) the overpopulation issue until the much more smart (wrt. health and Earth resources usage) humans evolve. Basic dialectics at work.

Bacteria evolves resistance at about the same rate as people develop defenses.

So yeah, if you don't mind killing off a huge segment of the population and having women die in childbirth regularly.

Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by taneq on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @08:15PM (#12083179)
> from the half-full glass POV we are just speeding up the natural selection of bacteria resistant humans

Bahaha that's one way to look at it. I guess we have plenty of humans to spare.

Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by hinkley on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @07:36PM (#12082984)
And then we raid the animal kingdom looking for other natural antibiotics so that when we all go down together...
Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by npsimons on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @07:06PM (#12082849)
> the customer is always right

No, they fucking aren't, especially when it comes to medicine. Antibiotics should be controlled like opiates; at least over-prescription of opiates doesn't endanger the whole species.

> What surprises me is with the levels of litigation against doctors, this hasn't seemed to trigger any change in behaviour.

Try fines - that's supposedly solved the opiate abuse problem.

Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by vacri on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @09:22PM (#12083385)
I remember one businessman being interviewed who stated very clearly that the customer is not always right, but that the customer does have the right to be heard. I think that was a much better phrasing - and truer to the actual spirit of the original than what it means at face value.
Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by scoot on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @05:20PM (#12082350)
The UK has had a campaign asking patients not to ask for antibiotics for a cold or flu (and presumably asking GPs not to prescribe them), and also reminding patients who are prescribed antibiotics to complete the course, but it must be impossible to regulate, particularly in a more capitalistic health system.

Disclosure: I live with a doctor.

Irrelevant aside: Rare to find someone on HN call a disclosure a disclosure, rather than the oft-abused "disclaimer"! :)

Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by wahern on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @10:49PM (#12083630)
Doctors are learned professionals, and they have a professional responsibility not to prescribe ineffective medication. Importantly, antibiotics come with their own substantial risks. A whiny patient is not a good reason, and I've never met a doctor unwilling to turn down a whiny patient. It's only at the margins where a whiny patient can cajole a doctor, such as to increase dosage. Plus, whining is one piece of evidence used in diagnosing, and if the doctor has others reasons to believe there's something substantive, whining can nudge him along.

The _crux_ of the issue is that doctors prescribe antibiotics for viral infections because the diagnosis is usually only based on a cursory examination. Their time is expensive, and you can't spend an hour on every patient with a cough and a fever. Furthermore, viral infections often precede or are concurrent with bacterial infections. So doctors are making a rational decision when prescribing antibiotics, and it's not even clear that this decision is globally suboptimal because bacterial infections are not uncommon with a cold or especially a flu.

If we're serious about overprescription of antibiotics, we should be heavily investing in improved diagnostic equipment and processes. For example, rapidly scanning mucus samples for viral and bacterial markers. The fact that we don't appear to be doing this suggests that either overprescription isn't actually a problem, or that we're not thinking seriously about the problem.

Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by the_duke on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @05:30AM (#12084983)
I can only speak for the situation in Austria:

In the past, doctors heavily over-prescribed antibiotics. Often as a precaution. The government and health providers have become very aware of an upcoming problem with high restistance though, so they are working hard to change the behaviour.

Existing doctors are re-educated not to prescribe Antibiotics on a hunch, with monitoring and reprimands from health providers.

And this is also drilled into med students in University.

Change always takes time... let's hope we won't be too late to avoid a serious increase in fatalities.

Re:A 'slow catastrophe' unfolds as the golden age of antibio... by founderscare on Tuesday July 12, 2016 @05:42PM (#12082477)
Antibiotics are heavily regulated and monitored in beef and dairy production in the EU to avoid food chain containment and the issues raised in the article. TTIP in the EU and Brexit in the UK will probably change that position for the worse.