Where does this come from in the larger culture? I can see why people who are soldiers or ... athletes at the varsity or pro level might be interested in it but why would anyone want to basically injure themselves as a ... hobby?

I've worked with runners who had serious injury, soccer players who came in with bruises that you'd associate with a severe beating... I'm thinking "geez, it's gonna suck when you're 62." Because when you lose some amount of basic mobility, you lose a lot of the ability to stay healthy when you're older.

Is this because of Mountain Dew commercials and 1980s GI Joe body image stuff?

> soccer players who came in with bruises that you'd associate with a severe beating

I was a lacrosse goalie in high school and didn't have the sense to wear shin pads. If you run your fingers along my shin, you'll feel divots where the bone never regenerated. I too used to walk around with bruises on my legs that you'd associate with a severe beating.

> Is this because of Mountain Dew commercials and 1980s GI Joe body image stuff?

It's considerably more primal than that. Sports are the modern equivalent to tribal rites of passage. We're not allowed to kill our rivals anymore, so we settle for beating them in a physical sport in order to establish our physical dominance. It's empowering in a way that few things are, especially as a teenager and extra especially if you were bullied throughout elementary school.

I was 120 lbs soaking wet when I was 17. The school gently guided me away from sports. Good thing, too. Best coach I ever had.

I graduated high school close to 1980. Sure, there were guys finishing the big game on a broken bone but it seems like there's a lot more emphasis on this now, and it seems more dangerous and higher risk. I have nephews and kids of friends who are electing out of organized sports.

FWIW, I feel lucky - we had basically one bully and he didn't last. Expelled.

I remember in "Brian's Song" where Alex Karrass' character sold cars in the pro football off season.

I dunno; I saw "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" and it gave me pause.

When I was 16, I was 130. That's after I spent three years in the weight room every day putting on muscle. I played every sport my school offered at least once, but I played football for 8 years. I never regretted it and I encourage everyone, especially the indoor geeky types, to try out for sports. Any sport. Even historical sword fighting. ;) It's an important experience that fewer kids are getting exposed to in this day and age thanks to helicopter parenting. Not to mention the life long social and health benefits

there are sports which will cripple your health in long run, almost guaranteed. many contact sports, it football comes to mind. some of my high school classmates are semi-cripples because of it (they can walk around, and that's about it). depression can be seen in their eyes - once you know what having a healthy and strong body means, and then losing it forever.

I've done my share of team/contact sports in my youth. nothing horrible happened apart from few broken fingers, but stuff I do now makes those sports look super boring/borderline idiotic when looking back (ie coach yelling at you like a little girl, running you around 'to break you to unlock your potential'). What I mean - trekking, skiing, climbing, via ferratas, cycling on unpaved roads, a bit of easy ski alpinism and mountaineering.

but I agree that any activity/sport is endlessly better than none, that's for sure

> depression can be seen in their eyes - once you know what having a healthy and strong body means, and then losing it forever.

I've talked to a friend of a friend who basically doesn't fear what normal people fear (e.g. talking to beautiful women, surfing, rock climbing, talking to strangers - he is really successful at sales). I asked him what his biggest fear was. He said it was to his lose health/lose control of his body (e.g. bad accident/paralysis).

We all have fears, and I think, in the end, we all fear mortality. And those who don't have the fears we most have (e.g. talking to beautiful women), fear their mortality/fragility of even the most fit body the most.

I never get whats the difference talking to beautiful women compared to anyone else? Im reserved and dont talk people much but there is no difference at all who those people are! Overall talking women is even bit easier as they are less dangerous on average.

For me, it's probably a holdover from my teenage years as a socially awkward and horny boy. I'm in my 30s now, but there's weird mental habits and impulses that are still sticking around.

I'm happily married, I don't cheat, I don't want to cheat, I'm really not interested in the "hot woman," but if I end up talking to her under any circumstances, there's a loud chorus of voices in my head screaming "dontfuckitupdontfuckitupdontfuckitup." I push through and get over my initial nerves, because I'm a grown up, but it's awful and annoying and I wish it would go away.

Wow, interesting stuff, i cant imagine any situation like that, even if i was operating my kid in life or death surgery i would not have dontfuckitup in my head, am i psychopath?

> we all fear mortality

Not everyone. You don't have to be afraid of death. And before someone suggests it, this is not the same thing as wanting to die or even not caring if you die.

> there are sports which will cripple your health in long run, almost guaranteed. many contact sports, it football comes to mind.

Did you play football? The danger of permanent crippling injury has been blown way out of proportion by helicopter parents and the news. Of all the kids I played with and all the kids I coached (volunteer), only one of them ever wound up partially crippled. That kid in particular would routinely do daredevil stunts in his spare time. By the time he injured his knee, he was missing teeth, had blown his eyebrows off three times, and messed up that knee at least twice before stepping foot on the field.

Football is a safe sport, considerably safer than not playing. I hear on the news about concussions and crippling injuries, but I never see it in real life. Those things are pretty rare, especially when compared to vehicle accidents. I've seen far more lifetime permanent injuries come out of the soccer camp, to be honest.

Well, football ain't bull ridin' for sure. There's just something gladiator-exploitative about the whole mess.

Another anecdote: guy I know has a kid that's like a high school... sophomore and in order for this kid to continue to add value as a basketball player, he apparently can't afford to play HS varsity ball. It's a distraction. His other (older) son is approaching 7 feet tall and is totally over organized sports altogether, and is pointed at engineering.

> There's just something gladiator-exploitative about the whole mess.

In what way?

> It's a distraction.

From what? That's the weirdest sort of reasoning I've ever heard.

You're using anecdotes to counter statistics?

What statistics? Nobody's provided any at this point in the conversation. If you have some, feel free to share. Otherwise, I'm going to downvote your comment as unproductive.

The statistics underpinning the fears of parents as to crippling injuries from head injuries in football are well documented, easily Google-able, and far more relevant than your anecdotal experience.

Due respect, put up or shut up.

>there are sports which will cripple your health in long run, almost guaranteed.

So will sitting on your chair in front of a computer 8 hours a day. Everything in moderation.

> it seems like there's a lot more emphasis on this now, and it seems more dangerous and higher risk.

College costs more than ever, so "pushing through" means you might make the playoffs, might get noticed and get a full ride. Hell, they're told, they might be able to go pro!

Very few people tell those kids the truth: It's a fool's errand. Only 1-2% of the kids who play basketball, football or baseball in high school actually go on to play in a division I school in college. Football players have the greatest chance of actually going pro, with a 1 in 600 chance of actually getting paid to pay pro ball... for an average of 3.5 years. If baseball is your game, it's 1 in 1850.

As the level of players gets better and better the game gets more dangerous. Rugby is a good example of this, over the past couple of years there have been multiple deaths because IMO the players are too big and too skilled. I watched a pro game from the 70s on YouTube between the two best rugby teams (NZ and Australia) and the level of play was shockingly bad, to the point that even an amateur club team now would have a good chance of beating them.

From a personal perspective I can say it's just routine. I get used to training every day and I like training with intensity (more sprint than endurance) but alas after years of repetitive strain injuries I have toned down the training load. It was unhelpful in the long run anyway as I would train for 9 months then need to sit out for 3-6 months and be back at square one (usually shin splints). My body (knees especially) aren't thanking me for it but it's nothing that can't be fixed without a good chiropractor and lots of cross training (mainly cycling and weights but yoga/pilates, running and swimming too).

I learnt a lot from how a buddy who is/was a world class 24 hour mountain bike racer trains. His view is long term, building up fitness slowly over years. I do admit I find it much harder to maintain routine now that I have pulled back the training load.

As someone who has injured himself for a "hobby" a number of times:

My "hobby" is a means for me to challenge myself, to push myself to my limits, to see what I am capable of and take my measure as a human being. It is a means for me to learn how to overcome fear, pain and doubt. It provides an objective haven when the subjective world is upside down.

Thank you for the explanation. That makes a lot of sense.

I use things other than athletic performance for that, but I've come to realize that I was nudged that way a lot by adults when I was younger.

Forgive the lack of depth in explanation, and I know it may not make sense, but for me: my children.

>but why would anyone want to basically injure themselves as a ... hobby?

Some people enjoy testing personal limits, physical and mental.

Yes I had to think of that article as well. It was on HN a while ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10711731

The 40% rule is useful if you're in combat and your life is on the line. But then again, in such a situation the adrenaline would make you ignore any pain or fatigue anyway. In normal life this 40% rule seems just stupid.

Interesting. I've trained with many Seals - they have ungodly cardio. I've never seen any that big, as the extra muscle kills their cardio.

Something seems fishy about that story. Not only are special forces people usually smaller, but getting hurt is a big no no. It will stop your training and severely jeopardize any mission you're on. Most special forces teaches the opposite of "if it's not hard we don't do it" i.e. to use your tactical advantage. That said, getting in to US special forces probably isn't that selective these days with having had to fill a lot of "seats" for various wars.

Anyone in any branch would be subject to charges for negligently incurring injury. I've heard a story about some guys in the Air Force who were written up for getting terrible sunburn while boating.

Digging in with Google, the writer is much less than a billionaire (though perhaps with more arrogance than one) and the seal was much less than 260 pounds. I have my suspicions about breaking every small bone in his feet and kidney failure too.

And even if that story is true - how much glory is running until one gets kidney failure?

The story wasn't told well in that post, but it is legit. I've heard him speak in person before. The way he tells it, he had three years of non-deployable time so it was the quickest way for him to accomplish his goal of getting into the Badwater ultramarathon to raise money for charity. Not ideal, but he knew that he would have time to fully recover from it.

Especially as the Vietnam War made drafts unpalatable.

Never realized that I code like a navy seal. Algorthims, Devops, Emacs, every fix is hot.