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Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by heartsucker on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:39AM (#12016988)
I'm not convinced the TSA is the best solution, but I still think bag checks helps. Let's say we "move the target" from on board a plane to the people clustered at the security check itself. A bomb goes off and kills 100 in the airport. That's bad. A smaller bomb goes off on the plane, decompresses the cabin of an international flight, and 600 people die. You get more bang for your buck if you take out the plane, so maybe some of this makes sense?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by exar0815 on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:56AM (#12017193)
I reckon the TSA-Checks are more of "Lets prevent a Terrorist from using a 500 ton plane with 250.000 litres of high explosive fuel moving at 700km/h against something else" than of "Lets prevent someone from killing the people onboard the plane".

Imagine someone ploughing shortly after the start into the Super Bowl. Thats what REAL security nightmares are made of.

Even though, even that cant be fully prevented. Best example would be someone like Andreas Lubitz.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by chris_va on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:27PM (#12017499)
Except whatever TSA would catch has mostly been solved with armored cockpit doors. Security money doesn't seem rationally invested.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by douche on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:37PM (#12017601)
We might as well just consider the TSA a really terrible jobs program.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by curried_haskell on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:40PM (#12018117)
An atrociously bad jobs program. Because while it gives a ton of people jobs, it bends over society and completely and thoroughly fucks the rest of us.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by themartorana on Friday July 01, 2016 @02:15PM (#12018417)
Not to mention they look like some downright miserable jobs.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by stcredzero on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:41PM (#12018128)
really terrible jobs program

That could be the basis of the worst reality TV show ever! Or one of President Trump's economic programs. Or both.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Nav_Panel on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:17PM (#12017942)
> more of "Lets prevent a Terrorist from using a 500 ton plane with 250.000 litres of high explosive fuel moving at 700km/h against something else"

The most important safety measure against this became mandatory procedure after 9/11: locking the cockpit doors. If the terrorists can't control the plane, they can't use it as a projectile weapon. No amount of killing passengers will give them this kind of access.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Navarr on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:47PM (#12018163)
Do we trust the pilots not to unlock the door in that situation? "Open the door or the passengers die!"?
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by sbov on Friday July 01, 2016 @02:09PM (#12018370)
Yes we do, because everyone will die anyways.

The reason why 9/11 was possible was because it had never happened. They could have added zero security measures, not even locking the cockpit door, and 9/11 still would probably not happen again. The reason is because before 9/11 the common wisdom was to let the hijackers do what they want. After 9/11 the common wisdom is the plane is going to be used to fly into a building.

But, locking the door is still a good common sense extra security measure.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by hga on Saturday July 02, 2016 @11:43AM (#12022900)
9/11 has to be the shortest duration of a terrorist gambit in history, it didn't even last the duration of the attack, for those on Flight 93 learned that the rules of the game had changed and responded accordingly.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Navarr on Friday July 01, 2016 @02:12PM (#12018391)
I mean yes, that's the _logic_. I guess what I'm asking is, is our expectation of pilots to follow that logic sound? Emotion over Logic, that sort of thing.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by dawnerd on Friday July 01, 2016 @02:08PM (#12018354)
I guess we can take it a step further, whats to stop a pilot from turning bad?
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by shabble on Friday July 01, 2016 @02:18PM (#12018447)
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by rodovich on Friday July 01, 2016 @02:31PM (#12018559)
Not the TSA in that case, either.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Retric on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:44AM (#12017044)
Number of deaths are fairly irrelevant to terrorists. 100 people or 500 don't really make a different to public precipitation which is what they care about.

However, box cutters where the weapon of choice for 9/11 you could make spears on board the aircraft and manually kill everyone except the pilots with a few burley and well trained people. Which is the real problem, defensive safety measures cost a lot and switching targets is really cheap for terrorists.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by wmeredith on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:48AM (#12017098)
I can't remember the source, it may have been a stand up comedian, but he said, "Hey, TSA, if I can hijack a plane with nail clippers. I can hijack one without them."
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by mvdwoord on Friday July 01, 2016 @03:48PM (#12019151)
First thing on my list tonight... airport security. Tired of this shit. There’s too much of it; there’s too much security at the airport. I’m tired of some guy with a double digit IQ and a triple digit income rooting around inside of my bag for no reason and never finding anything! Haven’t found anything yet! Haven’t found one bomb in one bag! And don’t tell me “well, the terrorists know their bags are gonna be searched so now they’re leaving their bombs at home.” There are no bombs. The whole thing is fucking pointless! And it’s completely without logic! There’s no logic at all! They’ll take away a gun, but let you keep a knife! Well what the fuck is that? In fact, there’s a whole list of lethal objects they will allow you to take on board. Theoretically, you could take... a knife, an ice pick, a hatchet, a straight razor, a pair of scissors, a chainsaw, 6 knitting needles, and a broken whiskey bottle, and the only thing they’re gonna say to you is “that bag has to fit all the way under the seat in front of you.” And if you didn’t take the weapon on board, relax; after you’ve been flying for about an hour, they’re gonna bring you a knife and fork. They actually give you a fucking knife! It’s only a table knife but you could kill a pilot with a table knife. It might take you a couple of minutes you know... especially if he’s hefty huh? Yeah but you could get the job done, if you really wanted to kill the prick. Shit, there’s a lot of things you could use to kill a guy with; you could probably beat a guy to death with the Sunday New York Times couldn’t you? Or suppose you just have really big hands. Couldn’t you strangle a flight attendant? Shit, you could probably strangle two of them; one with each hand... you know, if you are lucky enough to catch them in that little kitchen area... before they give out the fucking peanuts you know? But you could get the job done... if you really cared enough. - George Carlin (1937 - 2008)
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Retric on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:50AM (#12017127)
Yea, I thought an interesting plot point would be to have an attack carried out like that with peoples bare hands. So, now people are debating if tranquilizing strong passengers is enough or if we need to tranquilizes everyone.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by stcredzero on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:43PM (#12018139)
Maybe if the risk of death is small enough and it's cheaper than in-flight WiFi.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Spooky23 on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:14PM (#12017356)
It's a nasty business, but in that scenario, the system worked by protecting society at large from an airplane as a missile scenario.

Security has different dimensions. The point of TSA security is to avoid situations where a hostile party can breach the cockpit or disable the plane in the air. All of the security theatre, random searches, etc are all there to make airliners a less attractive target and try to keep terrorism scoped.

Protecting your life as a passenger is a secondary priority, which is accomplished by the random placement of air marshals. Someone planning to fashion ad-hoc spears out of plastic utensils or whatever must account for the presence of a guy with a gun as well as passengers fighting back.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by stcredzero on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:44PM (#12018149)
Someone planning to fashion ad-hoc spears out of plastic utensils or whatever must account for the presence of a guy with a gun as well as passengers fighting back.

So, are you saying a vigilant public and "a good guy with a gun" are the actual solutions? (And before the reader jumps to a conclusion about my relevant political positions, I'd estimate there's an 80% chance that you'd be wrong!)

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by themartorana on Friday July 01, 2016 @02:19PM (#12018451)
Vigilant public and a locked cabin door. Yes.

Now, it's true sometimes passengers can be... "too vigilant..." There are plenty of stories of Muslims being kicked off of planes for no particular reason, but in the end, yes, I vote public education.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Spooky23 on Friday July 01, 2016 @04:48PM (#12019533)
Yes, for the keeping passengers on an airplane alive and well.

For the "stop a hijacker from flying into a building" scenario, the locked door is the control.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Retric on Friday July 01, 2016 @08:39PM (#12020812)
Those locked doors need to last for 3+ hours on a flight over the ocean. Which might be possible but probably not.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by tamana on Saturday July 02, 2016 @12:10PM (#12022981)
No they don't. 3 hrs is plenty of time for a military jet to intercept a hostile commercial jet
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Retric on Friday July 01, 2016 @08:36PM (#12020797)
If a good guy with a gun is on-board that's either paying for someone on every flight. Or your letting random people on board and ya know bad guys can also get guns.

Don't forget, we already lost an aircraft because the door locks and a pilot had a death wish. So, even if you pay someone with a gun to be on board he could be a terrorist, so now you need two guys with guns...

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by venomsnake on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:16PM (#12017380)
Actually number of deaths are all terrorists care about.

The society freaks out N^2(3) number of deaths involved.

Oklahoma were 168 people. 9/11 were 3000. The response to 9/11 was way greater than Oklahoma*20. It was event that defined US politics for 2 decades lead to 2-4 wars (depending on definition).

And the news cycle have already forgotten San Bernadino, Charlie Hebdo and Paris is on the brink of falling out.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Retric on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:44PM (#12017673)
From what I recall the government cared a lot more about 9/11 than the populous. It was a perfect excuse for a lot of things.

Even then, it was not the number of deaths so much as the loss of a monument that really stuck with people.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by zeveb on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:27PM (#12018024)
The populace cared a lot. People were pissed. The 1990s were a vacation from history, at least in America (the Balkans weren't nearly as nice): things were so easy that we actually thought that George W. Bush & Al Gore were decent choices for President. We napped after the end of the Cold War; 11 September was a brutal wake-up call.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by tamana on Saturday July 02, 2016 @12:13PM (#12022988)
No, they care about spectacular drama of taking out a landmark and sudden death. There are plenty of ways to kill over 3000 people (poisoning , for example)
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by iofj on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:50AM (#12017125)
And putting 600 people tightly packed in a queue in an enclosed space makes this better how ? As demonstrated, you can get a bomb in there and kill ~50 people. With 2 or 3 I bet you could get that number up quite a bit.

Security that works by simply creating a juicier target is obviously not security at all.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Retric on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:53AM (#12017158)
I don't think there is a shortage of juicy targets. A few Cessna's could do very bad things to the stadium at the Super Bowl.

The real limitation seems to be a limited number of terrorists not a limited number of targets.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by tamana on Saturday July 02, 2016 @12:11PM (#12022984)
Cessnas crash into houses all the time. It's bad but it's no 9/11
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by devdas on Saturday July 02, 2016 @07:34AM (#12022159)
Or a few drones?
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by iofj on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:13PM (#12017339)
The argument I was making is not about more or less targets, it is that securing one point against terrorists by creating a new point that's very weak against terrorists is somewhere between useless and stupid.

That there are other targets is obviously correct, but I do not feel it really addresses the point.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by raldi on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:43AM (#12017035)
If you want to kill 600 people, it's a lot easier to put ten bombs on ten buses, or six bombs on six security lines, than one bomb on one airplane.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by dogma1138 on Friday July 01, 2016 @02:24PM (#12018502)
It's not about killing people, an attack on the airport is a higher profile attack regardless of how many casualties it involved.

Attack on the airport also targets people who aren't native, often westerners which is both what these organizations often want and it ensures that it would much more widely reported than "a bus blew up in north eastern turkey" which maybe will get a headline for 2 hours.

Attack on an airport tells people see you aren't safe anywhere your "most secure" location with all that security isn't safe, we can get you anywhere any time, this helps to spread the fear both within the country and world wide.

Attack on an airport immediately triggers security lockdowns world wide which amplifies the financial cost of the attack globally.

Terrorism is often considerably more calculated than what people think, especially when it comes to high profile attacks.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by adevine on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:19PM (#12017401)
Putting 10 bombs on 10 buses requires a lot more planning and terrorists, which greatly enhances the chance of getting caught. Especially in the US, where much of the risk is currently centered around "lone wolf"-type attacks, anything that would require a greater number of people seems like it would be a significant deterrent.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by raldi on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:31PM (#12017541)
I don't follow. Overnight bus parking lots tend to have very little security. Luggage loaded onto buses gets very little screening. A single person could easily put bombs on multiple buses and then slip away.

Or ten people could do it. It's probably a lot easier to find ten recruits willing to load bombs onto buses and escape than to find one recruit willing to die by bringing a bomb onto a plane.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by adevine on Friday July 01, 2016 @05:46PM (#12019924)
If you go around trying to find 10 people to commit mass murder, there is a high likelihood that one of them will turn you in, or that one of them is already under law enforcement scrutiny that will lead to discovery of your plans.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by jacalata on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:13PM (#12017916)
Even easier to find one person willing to give ten recruits a carefully wrapped package of "drugs" that they think they will deliver at the other end....
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by wtvanhest on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:20PM (#12017414)
I think you are right.

Being in a closed cabin at 30,000 feet means that the size of the explosion has to be a lot smaller than on the ground to have the same impact. Additionally, guns can lead to lead to 9/11 situations.

More importantly, TSA probably won't defend against a state level threat, but it keeps crazy people from doing ridiculous stuff. Take a look at this pre-security list of incidents: (remember, a lot less people flew back then)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_hijackings

There is no way not to have security on flights. The next step is making it much faster and more predictable to reduce overall travel time.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by thomasahle on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:53PM (#12017747)
Again, most of these (if not all?) would have been prevented by better cockpit doors and/or air marshal.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by wtvanhest on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:44PM (#12018151)
How would a better cockpit door and an air marshal stop a guy with 10 lbs of explosives?

All he has to do is show it to everyone and he can direct the pilots to fly anywhere he wants. They may not do a 9/11, but they will all do what he says.

Some type of security will always be required at airports and probably eventually on high speed trains as well. Now we just need to figure out how to make it way faster and less invasive.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by LeifCarrotson on Friday July 01, 2016 @03:01PM (#12018815)
The locked door and air marshal stop the plane from becoming a jet-fuel missile directed at any point in range and turn it into a bomb plummeting inaccurately somewhere under its flight path.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by thomasahle on Friday July 01, 2016 @04:31PM (#12019414)
Parent was about flight high jacking prior to modern airport security.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by loeg on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:25PM (#12017480)
600 people is an incredibly large plane. Most are more like 160-180.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by wtvanhest on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:47PM (#12018168)
There are plenty of plans with nearly 600 people in capacity. The Airbus A380 has a max capacity of 900 people. If you are going to bring a bomb on a plane, which one would you choose?

A 20 person commuter jet or a 900 seat Emirates Air flight from London to NYC?

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/the-biggest/the-10-bigge...

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by tamana on Saturday July 02, 2016 @12:16PM (#12022994)
Whichever is most convenient, since it's a low probability operation. 9/11 attack would have been 10x worse casualties if it was 1 hr later . Why wasn't it?