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Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Retric on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:44AM (#12017044)
Number of deaths are fairly irrelevant to terrorists. 100 people or 500 don't really make a different to public precipitation which is what they care about.

However, box cutters where the weapon of choice for 9/11 you could make spears on board the aircraft and manually kill everyone except the pilots with a few burley and well trained people. Which is the real problem, defensive safety measures cost a lot and switching targets is really cheap for terrorists.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by wmeredith on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:48AM (#12017098)
I can't remember the source, it may have been a stand up comedian, but he said, "Hey, TSA, if I can hijack a plane with nail clippers. I can hijack one without them."
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by mvdwoord on Friday July 01, 2016 @03:48PM (#12019151)
First thing on my list tonight... airport security. Tired of this shit. There’s too much of it; there’s too much security at the airport. I’m tired of some guy with a double digit IQ and a triple digit income rooting around inside of my bag for no reason and never finding anything! Haven’t found anything yet! Haven’t found one bomb in one bag! And don’t tell me “well, the terrorists know their bags are gonna be searched so now they’re leaving their bombs at home.” There are no bombs. The whole thing is fucking pointless! And it’s completely without logic! There’s no logic at all! They’ll take away a gun, but let you keep a knife! Well what the fuck is that? In fact, there’s a whole list of lethal objects they will allow you to take on board. Theoretically, you could take... a knife, an ice pick, a hatchet, a straight razor, a pair of scissors, a chainsaw, 6 knitting needles, and a broken whiskey bottle, and the only thing they’re gonna say to you is “that bag has to fit all the way under the seat in front of you.” And if you didn’t take the weapon on board, relax; after you’ve been flying for about an hour, they’re gonna bring you a knife and fork. They actually give you a fucking knife! It’s only a table knife but you could kill a pilot with a table knife. It might take you a couple of minutes you know... especially if he’s hefty huh? Yeah but you could get the job done, if you really wanted to kill the prick. Shit, there’s a lot of things you could use to kill a guy with; you could probably beat a guy to death with the Sunday New York Times couldn’t you? Or suppose you just have really big hands. Couldn’t you strangle a flight attendant? Shit, you could probably strangle two of them; one with each hand... you know, if you are lucky enough to catch them in that little kitchen area... before they give out the fucking peanuts you know? But you could get the job done... if you really cared enough. - George Carlin (1937 - 2008)
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Retric on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:50AM (#12017127)
Yea, I thought an interesting plot point would be to have an attack carried out like that with peoples bare hands. So, now people are debating if tranquilizing strong passengers is enough or if we need to tranquilizes everyone.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by stcredzero on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:43PM (#12018139)
Maybe if the risk of death is small enough and it's cheaper than in-flight WiFi.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Spooky23 on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:14PM (#12017356)
It's a nasty business, but in that scenario, the system worked by protecting society at large from an airplane as a missile scenario.

Security has different dimensions. The point of TSA security is to avoid situations where a hostile party can breach the cockpit or disable the plane in the air. All of the security theatre, random searches, etc are all there to make airliners a less attractive target and try to keep terrorism scoped.

Protecting your life as a passenger is a secondary priority, which is accomplished by the random placement of air marshals. Someone planning to fashion ad-hoc spears out of plastic utensils or whatever must account for the presence of a guy with a gun as well as passengers fighting back.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by stcredzero on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:44PM (#12018149)
Someone planning to fashion ad-hoc spears out of plastic utensils or whatever must account for the presence of a guy with a gun as well as passengers fighting back.

So, are you saying a vigilant public and "a good guy with a gun" are the actual solutions? (And before the reader jumps to a conclusion about my relevant political positions, I'd estimate there's an 80% chance that you'd be wrong!)

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by themartorana on Friday July 01, 2016 @02:19PM (#12018451)
Vigilant public and a locked cabin door. Yes.

Now, it's true sometimes passengers can be... "too vigilant..." There are plenty of stories of Muslims being kicked off of planes for no particular reason, but in the end, yes, I vote public education.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Spooky23 on Friday July 01, 2016 @04:48PM (#12019533)
Yes, for the keeping passengers on an airplane alive and well.

For the "stop a hijacker from flying into a building" scenario, the locked door is the control.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Retric on Friday July 01, 2016 @08:39PM (#12020812)
Those locked doors need to last for 3+ hours on a flight over the ocean. Which might be possible but probably not.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by tamana on Saturday July 02, 2016 @12:10PM (#12022981)
No they don't. 3 hrs is plenty of time for a military jet to intercept a hostile commercial jet
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Retric on Friday July 01, 2016 @08:36PM (#12020797)
If a good guy with a gun is on-board that's either paying for someone on every flight. Or your letting random people on board and ya know bad guys can also get guns.

Don't forget, we already lost an aircraft because the door locks and a pilot had a death wish. So, even if you pay someone with a gun to be on board he could be a terrorist, so now you need two guys with guns...

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by venomsnake on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:16PM (#12017380)
Actually number of deaths are all terrorists care about.

The society freaks out N^2(3) number of deaths involved.

Oklahoma were 168 people. 9/11 were 3000. The response to 9/11 was way greater than Oklahoma*20. It was event that defined US politics for 2 decades lead to 2-4 wars (depending on definition).

And the news cycle have already forgotten San Bernadino, Charlie Hebdo and Paris is on the brink of falling out.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Retric on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:44PM (#12017673)
From what I recall the government cared a lot more about 9/11 than the populous. It was a perfect excuse for a lot of things.

Even then, it was not the number of deaths so much as the loss of a monument that really stuck with people.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by zeveb on Friday July 01, 2016 @01:27PM (#12018024)
The populace cared a lot. People were pissed. The 1990s were a vacation from history, at least in America (the Balkans weren't nearly as nice): things were so easy that we actually thought that George W. Bush & Al Gore were decent choices for President. We napped after the end of the Cold War; 11 September was a brutal wake-up call.
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by tamana on Saturday July 02, 2016 @12:13PM (#12022988)
No, they care about spectacular drama of taking out a landmark and sudden death. There are plenty of ways to kill over 3000 people (poisoning , for example)
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by iofj on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:50AM (#12017125)
And putting 600 people tightly packed in a queue in an enclosed space makes this better how ? As demonstrated, you can get a bomb in there and kill ~50 people. With 2 or 3 I bet you could get that number up quite a bit.

Security that works by simply creating a juicier target is obviously not security at all.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by Retric on Friday July 01, 2016 @11:53AM (#12017158)
I don't think there is a shortage of juicy targets. A few Cessna's could do very bad things to the stadium at the Super Bowl.

The real limitation seems to be a limited number of terrorists not a limited number of targets.

Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by tamana on Saturday July 02, 2016 @12:11PM (#12022984)
Cessnas crash into houses all the time. It's bad but it's no 9/11
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by devdas on Saturday July 02, 2016 @07:34AM (#12022159)
Or a few drones?
Re:Does More Security at Airports Make Us Safer or Just Move... by iofj on Friday July 01, 2016 @12:13PM (#12017339)
The argument I was making is not about more or less targets, it is that securing one point against terrorists by creating a new point that's very weak against terrorists is somewhere between useless and stupid.

That there are other targets is obviously correct, but I do not feel it really addresses the point.