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Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by makomk on Sunday June 26, 2016 @05:52AM (#11980075)
Yes. This is to protect against attackers obtaining your full plaintext password on your end, for example by phishing or installing keyloggers. In practice this is a much bigger security threat in the online banking world than someone doing the same by compromising the bank's systems - even if that were to happen they can easily re-verify your identity and issue you with a new password, and you really shouldn't be using the same password elsewhere.
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by pierrec on Sunday June 26, 2016 @10:10AM (#11980843)
It's a ridiculous practice and storing the passwords in plaintext is deplorable. Banks have your phone number, (which can't simply be changed online) and that is the best additional line of security.

The scrambled on-screen keyboard / n-th character request only poorly "protects" against cases where the attacker has full root access to the customer's machine (how would it protect against phishing?), and in those cases the attacker is likely already capable of making all kinds of payments, even without access to the online banking account. If security is done properly, an attacker can't make direct use of a banking account anyways: creating a new transfer recipient should require phone confirmation by default.

Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by GhotiFish on Sunday June 26, 2016 @08:41PM (#11983571)
you know. It occurs to me that you could actually do this without storing the password in plaintext!

All you'd have to do is iterate every potential answer into a bloom filter and store that. The math gets a little hairy around the 50 character mark as you'd have 117600 operations to do to construct the bloom filter, and it gets worse if you expect more characters.

Here's how you would construct it.

For every 3 choose n of the password, insert a value of those 3 characters ("abc") + delimit (":") + the positions (1,2,4), You can't just insert the characters because the index of characters is part of the answer.

all you'd need to do is store... a ~1MB bloom filter per client. Huh, that number was bigger than I thought it would be.

Well nevermind. Fun thought though.

Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by Vexs on Monday June 27, 2016 @10:16AM (#11986256)
Realistically you could also just limit it to the first 10 characters.
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by MereInterest on Sunday June 26, 2016 @06:15AM (#11980143)
Phishing is a much bigger security threat, but is a much less harmful one than having the password database stolen. It sounds like they are trying to minimize the day-to-day risks, at the expense of maximize the damage of a catastrophic event.
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by kybernetikos on Sunday June 26, 2016 @10:46AM (#11981003)
All the systems I've used that do this make you have two passwords, only one of which they are storing in a reversible way.
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by makomk on Sunday June 26, 2016 @04:42PM (#11982601)
If the password database is stolen somehow, that probably means that the bank's online banking systems have been compromised. Having the password database stolen is likely to be the least of their worries at that point.
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by pavel_lishin on Sunday June 26, 2016 @11:06AM (#11981079)
I wonder how often people just type out the full password into the address bar or into notepad, and then start counting to find the nth digit.
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by christianmann on Sunday June 26, 2016 @12:51PM (#11981513)
Don't be ridiculous. They probably type it into Microsoft Word.
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by Gaelan on Monday June 27, 2016 @01:08AM (#11984294)
I hope not the address bar, as that goes to Google (or $searchEngine) for autocomplete.
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by beached_whale on Sunday June 26, 2016 @09:16PM (#11983684)
Except attackers usually get the passwords from other sites' databases that do the same thing and don't use proper backend hashing/salting
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by stouset on Monday June 27, 2016 @01:25PM (#11987714)
If someone has that level of access to your system, they can just send themselved the session cookie. Or if the cookie is tied to an IP address, they can just make requests with that cookie from the compromised machine.

If an attacker is running code on your system, you are already lost.

Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by chris_wot on Sunday June 26, 2016 @06:39AM (#11980207)
How does this prevent key logging attacks? You still type in those characters. And secondly, that just immediately made it a hell of a lot easier to brute force your way through the passwords!
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by k-mcgrady on Sunday June 26, 2016 @07:29AM (#11980349)
It asks for different characters from the password each time. So it'll ask for the 1st, 4th, and 5th characters. Next time you go to login it'll ask from 2nd, 8th, 14th. So a key logger is only getting a small portion of the password each time.
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by coldtea on Sunday June 26, 2016 @09:10AM (#11980606)
So they attacker just has to run the keylogger for enough time...
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by tim333 on Sunday June 26, 2016 @09:24AM (#11980655)
Yeah I was thinking they could do that. You'd only need to record a few logins.

Re brute forcing, some like firstdirect make you type a word as well and they probably block you after 3 fails so it would be quite hard to brute force. Tddirectinvesting only ask a 7 digit account number and 3 digits from the password so you could probably brute force coms of those with a botnet though they only let you transfer money to a pre nominated bank account so it would still be hard to nick people's money.

Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by dogma1138 on Sunday June 26, 2016 @10:17AM (#11980878)
The attacker needs to both be able to read the page and key log every keystroke and be able to associate as single letter, digit, or symbol to you password and not only that to the correct placement within the password. This is virtually impossible to achieve by any effective means. They ask random characters from your password in a random order if you login into your bank twice a week it most likely will a year or more until a some one can phish your entire password from you this is not scaleable.
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by coldtea on Sunday June 26, 2016 @11:34AM (#11981188)
>This is virtually impossible to achieve by any effective means.

Actually it's very simple to achieve.

First, those digits will not be randomly placed among all the things you've typed, but they'd follow some specific patterns (the most obvious one being you typing all of part --due to autocomplete-- of the bank's url).

(Of course if you can run a keylogger you can also check what website is loaded on the browser and log that information alongside the keys too, but you don't even need to go that far).

So, we established that the attacker checking the keylogger logs can trivially tell - "now they're typing their banking password".

If they also knew the correct placement that would be handy, but they can do without it too. Just knowing those N characters are from your password (in any order) really improves the possibilities they need to search.

Even if it takes a year, either they are very dedicated to you as a special (large bank account) profile target, so they can wait, or they are logging tens of thousands, via some malware, so it's still worth it to wait.

Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by dogma1138 on Sunday June 26, 2016 @11:46AM (#11981252)
It doesn't the passwords will be rotated, and they cannot be used for anything without the token.

Such attacks rely on large scales rather than being targeted.

If you target a specific account there are much better attacks out there to do if you target specific individuals or organizations.

Yes this isn't the best method and I've had and still have a lot of objections to it (it requires the password to be stored in a reversible encryption, but that is also sadly a regulatory requirement).

But I've tested it a 10 character password using their random characters random order request method took at the least 413 (that was the lowest in my case, I didn't run a full statistical analysis on it) login requests. This is because that asking for 1st 2nd and 3rd characters, and 2nd 1st and 3rd, and 3rd, 2nd and 1st etc. are all considered "different" authentication requests by the bank.

Your keylogger would have to be also able to read the page and know that the 1st box wants the 4th character and the 2nd box wants the 3rd and the 3rd want's the 7th. This isn't that trivial, and this doesn't scale for an attack that can target 10,000's of users over a short time period.

You need to understand that banks constantly change their web pages, they monitor for bank related malware and some of them even use additional protection like for example randomizing the names of the input fields and even the number of the fields to make effective keylogging with full browser compromise even harder.

You also are incorrect when assuming that if i know the 1st 3 characters of a password it somehow helps me it doesn't because you do not have an authentication mechanism to brute force against there isn't some login page that takes the full password, and 3 incorrect login attempt lock your user and require you to initiate a recovery by phone or by visiting a branch.

This system overall is pretty good at preventing direct attacks against the bank's own system, it's resilient to phishing, brute forcing is not an option, and a keylogger can be active for 1-2 years without effectively getting the password. Effective security isn't black and white, there are is a lot of grey areas that might seem asinine and many of them are but they do work when you have the proper mitigating controls.

But let's ignore all of what we've established so far and go back to your assertion you assert that this attack is effective against high value accounts / individuals. Well that's great, because from the point of view of the bank it says hey look we've put in a control that can effectively protect 99% of our users, let's see what can we do to protect the 1%. That's how you achieve good security, you don't pool everyone into the same group, accounts with an average balance of 5000$ do not have the same risk portfolio as accounts with an average balance of 1M$. Differential security and risk management is how you apply effective security on very large groups, you employ shared controls that cover the basics and add mitigating controls based on the individual risk portfolios for each sub group.

Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by dkersten on Sunday June 26, 2016 @09:18AM (#11980628)
Only if they also capture the website output so they know which logged key press represents which character of the password.
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by EToS on Sunday June 26, 2016 @09:40AM (#11980720)
They also use 2FA i believe.. but then it makes logging in a right pain the ass for customers: 1) track down your massive identity number 2) enter 2nd, 5th, 8th characters of your password 3) locate your 2FA code from the HSBC device they send.
Re:The “Cobra Effect” that is disabling paste on password fi... by ryanlol on Sunday June 26, 2016 @11:30AM (#11981178)
And they totally wont kill the account after a couple of wrong attempts, right?