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Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:47PM (#11878886)
My first instinct is that this is creepy overreach, and that I'm glad I don't work for Riot. On the other hand, they have the right to big brother their staff - and said staff should probably know better. It's definitely one of the costs of turning a hobby into a job.

That said, still glad I don't work there. To my mind, this sort of company behavior sets an unpleasant precedent, and I kind of like knowing I have the freedom to play a game without worrying about being fired for "snarky passive aggression" or something similar. Maybe I'd feel differently if gaming wasn't just something I did in my spare time.

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by dylz on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:55PM (#11878947)
Being passive aggressive is not an issue here; employees calling their customers worthless cancerous trash while on an official company-name-tagged account is an issue and would have you removed from any company regardless.

Almost all of my friends there have separate personal and work ("Riot<username>") accounts, the latter at the very least requires you to set a good example as a company representative

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:59PM (#11878984)
I didn't get the impression that only company accounts were being audited, since the article ends with mentioning how new hires are forced to share their personal handle.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by dylz on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:00PM (#11879002)
New hires share their personal handle because that is the only handle they have; i.e., they have not played games on their company-provided accounts yet.

You don't need to share your primary account, you can theoretically apply for the job with a secondary, or none.

This isn't exactly strict separation of personal life, you are basically working at a specific venue and playing at that same venue just without your uniform; people know and you won't last long in similar situations elsewhere either (unless you're maliken/s2 games)

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:06PM (#11879079)
> New hires share their personal handle because that is the only handle they have; i.e., they have not played games on their company-provided accounts yet.

So, are you saying that once they acquire a company provided account their personal ones are no longer audited? That doesn't seem to be the case at all.

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by darklajid on Friday June 10, 2016 @04:23PM (#11879707)
No, I think they are saying that you are asked to share your handle and new guys tend to hand over their 'real' one. While you might just as well create a 'I apply at Riot' one earlier. Or (no idea about that) claim that you don't have one perhaps?
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by lucasmullens on Friday June 10, 2016 @04:37PM (#11879814)
I feel like if you told them you don't have an account or have a level 1 account, they would be far less likely to hire you.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by CocaKoala on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:10PM (#11880051)
So you have a primary account that you play on, then apply to riot, and then create a new account that Riot doesn't know about where you call your jungler cancerous garbage. Easy peasy.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by rcthompson on Friday June 10, 2016 @07:07PM (#11880866)
Unless you're playing your alternate account via Tor or a VPN or something, Riot can presumably notice that both accounts are used from the same IP and put the pieces together. And that would be a long way to go to hide your behavior.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by hatsunearu on Friday June 10, 2016 @06:20PM (#11880571)
This is terrible.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by umanwizard on Friday June 10, 2016 @07:20PM (#11880939)
Why? Anecdotally I know several people who got hired at Facebook without having an active Facebook account.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by pandaman on Friday June 10, 2016 @10:33PM (#11881716)
Riot does seem to require playing LoL[1]. Not sure how is Facebook relevant here.

[1]A random job posting from Riot http://www.riotgames.com/careers/10838

"While our engineers come in all shapes and sizes and work with many technologies, we expect every engineer at Riot to be:

Player-focused: you’re a gamer whose passion for games (especially League of Legends)"

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by umanwizard on Sunday June 12, 2016 @12:31AM (#11886656)
Thanks for the citation! Wish I hadn't been downvoted for asking an honest question, but this clears things up.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by pandaman on Sunday June 12, 2016 @12:57AM (#11886707)
I have not downvoted you but I imagine many people here do not like non sequitur arguments.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by umanwizard on Sunday June 12, 2016 @01:11PM (#11889084)
It's not a non sequitur at all. Just pointing out that it's not unreasonable to imagine someone working somewhere without being a user of that company's product.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by chris_wot on Friday June 10, 2016 @09:33PM (#11881528)
Is that even legal?
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by Splines on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:15PM (#11880076)
I find this creepy. I completely agree with policing your employees when they self-identify themselves as such (e.g., with RiotFoo name tags). This is normal.

What is not normal is asking prospective employees for their user id and making decisions based off of the chat logs attached to it. I mean, it makes sense, but it seems like an invasion of privacy.

Would it be fair for YC to make decisions based off of the HN comment logs of YC applicants?

Sometimes you do stupid things and I believe you shouldn't be forever in the future held accountable for what you said in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by was_boring on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:33PM (#11880221)
I thought they asked for your HN username. What else would they do with it?
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by zorpner on Friday June 10, 2016 @10:46PM (#11881761)
Would it be fair for YC to make decisions based off of the HN comment logs of YC applicants?

They explicitly do this.

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by vonklaus on Saturday June 11, 2016 @03:10AM (#11882441)
not parent. I bet they do not, however I think you implicitly agree by providing it on the application. Maybe in the case of partners being on the fence, ect, but if not out of privacy probably strictly out of time and number restrictions. That said, they always speak about how incredible their internal software is YC and HN has solid management & spam reduction software. I wouldn't be surprised if they filter for some internal criteria in an automated fashion.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by bertrand-caron on Saturday June 11, 2016 @03:46AM (#11882545)
To be fair, using the word 'privacy' implies that those conversations were private in the first place. In my opinion, there is nothing 'private' about verbally abusing (or whatever else lead to the report) a stranger on the internet on a 5v5 chat (plus any potential spectator).
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by nacho2sweet on Friday June 10, 2016 @04:58PM (#11879964)
At first I thought the same with the creepy overreach. But I thought for two seconds, and was like if I went around acting on my work campus like I do at 3am drunk with friends I should be fired too. You are engaging in your place of work and should be a positive influence. You don't shit in the middle of the office.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:40PM (#11880282)
In principle, I agree with you. In practice, I think we're entering somewhat untrodden waters.

Certainly : acting like a fool in your place of employ is bad. However, using your analogy as an example, what's happening here is also a bit like those 3 AM campus shenanigans that occurred while you were a student being held against you when you go looking for a job - since Riot is screening potential employees based on their game history.

If Riot screens applicants based on their LoL behavior, then why shouldn't Facebook? Google? Why shouldn't any of these respective companies sell said information to other 3rd party companies that want to pre-screen hires?

Ultimately I guess I'm arguing against a fully transparent world, because as happy as I am with my electronic footprint - I'm not sure how happy I am about the idea of everyone in the world who I interact with peering at it with a microscope.

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by RiotBoatStuff on Saturday June 11, 2016 @01:36AM (#11882239)
It's less about your game history and more about your behavior directed at strangers. We're a player focused company, and if you're a total jerk to strangers because you've tilted, how can you be expected to make the game better for those same people?
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Saturday June 11, 2016 @01:04PM (#11884214)
> It's less about your game history and more about your behavior directed at strangers

This is a bit like saying "it's less about the means, but about the ends". I don't think anyone's confused about your motivations.

> We're a player focused company, and if you're a total jerk to strangers because you've tilted, how can you be expected to make the game better for those same people?

I'm as jerk averse as the next person, but this reasoning is on the weak side. History is full of jerks who have made important contributions to their field despite of (or because of) their jerkiness. Edison, Ford, Jobs : all jackasses of epic proportions who all made quality products.

Ultimately, you do you. If you want to shit can jerks, then shit can jerks. I just feel like there are more germane - and less creepily invasive - metrics that can be applied to someone's job performance than their behavior in a game.

edit : I've responded to another one of your comments elsewhere, and just want to add some clarifying context. I really don't want to start defending in game trolls, because the specifics seem to be indefensible (racism, death threats, et al). My concern is a step removed into a hypothetical bigger picture, where everything we do electronically becomes fair game for assessment and auditing - and I see this as a step in that direction.

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by hashmymustache on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:37PM (#11880257)
Exactly, as representatives you're held to a higher standard in setting the tone for the community, regardless of the time of day. That said, this should have been made clear to every employee up front if it's that important to them.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by mathattack on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:22PM (#11879207)
This is worse than overreach. It's actively subverting your employer.

If you work for a bank touting stock X, you can't in troll Yahoo boards crapping on it.

If you work at a school teaching kids math, you can't troll on-line forums giving wrong answers to math problems. (At least morally)

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by enraged_camel on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:31PM (#11879280)
You can do both of those things anonymously. The problem is that, in Riot's case, employees are required to use their Riot username when they play, and IIRC the game clearly identifies them as Riot employees. Furthermore, the problem employees in question tried to influence their teammates by pulling rank on them or intimidating them using their employee status. That, I suspect, is the main reason they got in trouble.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by duskwuff on Friday June 10, 2016 @07:10PM (#11880889)
Having players who are employees always explicitly identified by the game seems like a bad idea from the get-go. It exposes them to unusual user behavior, both from users that will not misbehave when they see an employee is present, and from users who will deliberately antagonize the employee. It also places employees in a situation where they may be tempted to pull rank on their customers; if they aren't identified as employees, they have no way of credibly doing so.

Most other online games I've played have had a policy of not identifying players as employees unless they're actively acting as a moderator (e.g, gamemasters in MMORPGs, who aren't really playing the game anyways). I'm very surprised that Riot isn't following their lead here.

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by enraged_camel on Friday June 10, 2016 @09:14PM (#11881443)
My guess is that it serves to quench the common player criticism of "omg, this game is so unbalanced, it's like the developers don't even play their own game!"

And, from what I remember, the LoL community generally really enjoys playing with Riot employees. Back when I used to play (several years ago now) I don't remember running into a single toxic Riot employee. Then again they didn't have very many employees then.

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by mathattack on Friday June 10, 2016 @10:07PM (#11881637)
I think that's the point - they're great playing the game, but not when they ruin it as trolls.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by RiotBoatStuff on Saturday June 11, 2016 @01:33AM (#11882230)
Made an account to just comment on this. It's not little stuff like passive aggression, or even swearing at teammates. It's the extreme stuff that gets you in trouble: racial slurs, death threats, pulling rank (I'm a Riot employee I'm going to ban you BLEEEEEEEP).
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by developer2 on Sunday June 12, 2016 @01:06AM (#11886732)
Bullshit. It's claimed in the article that the frequency is ~25%. 25% of players do not commit the kinds of chat you are talking about. Clearly the chat log audit against employees is conducted via a purely subjective process, and you can be blacklisted into the "bad employee" pool for anything the auditor of the day decides is "inappropriate".

Riot and every Rioter should be ashamed that this process is taking place. Search up on Henry Ford's practice of invading employees' private lives. It's disgusting. And what you guys are doing is no different. I can't believe there are employees defending this in public... anything to gain favor with your bosses, huh?

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Saturday June 11, 2016 @01:17PM (#11884278)
> It's the extreme stuff that gets you in trouble: racial slurs, death threats, pulling rank (I'm a Riot employee I'm going to ban you BLEEEEEEEP).

I appreciate the context - this wasn't really super clear from the article. It's completely nuts that anyone would behave this way on a Riot-named account.

Was this sort of behavior prevalent? I'm honestly surprised it's never come up. If I was in a game and witnessed a Riot employee going off on players with racial slurs and death threats - that most certainly would have been screenshot and reddit frontpage worthy.

Either way, specifics aside this sort of behavior is obviously completely unacceptable in a place of employ (of which a company sponsored account is an extension).

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by draw_down on Friday June 10, 2016 @06:07PM (#11880484)
That's about how I feel about it too.

My concern with this growing "no assholes" or "no toxic people" sentiment is that it sounds great, but who gets to decide who is and who isn't?

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by morley on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:53PM (#11878932)
If you get hired for many companies, they'll do a background check. Would you consider that overreach? And how is this any different?

From my perspective, they're hiring someone to have access to their codebase; release their code to millions of users; and spend most of the day next to other people. Hiring is already a blunt tool for finding out if someone can do the work, much less interact well with others. As long as the information isn't completely unrelated to their job function, and it's not discriminatory, it seems reasonable to use all the information at your disposal to reduce that risk.

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:04PM (#11879062)
> If you get hired for many companies, they'll do a background check. Would you consider that overreach? And how is this any different?

> As long as the information isn't completely unrelated to their job function, and it's not discriminatory, it seems reasonable to use all the information at your disposal to reduce that risk.

Does it seem reasonable for Google to analyze the personal email accounts of their employees? If not, how is that any different from what's being discussed here?

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by scott_s on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:10PM (#11879105)
Email accounts have an expectation of privacy, since they are person-to-person communication. In-game chat on public servers does not have an expectation of privacy, since it's public to all connected.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:15PM (#11879145)
By this reasoning, isn't email also "public" to all recipients? Does Google Hangouts not have an expectation of privacy, since it's fundamentally no different from chat on a game server?
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by scott_s on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:43PM (#11879400)
You have control over who you email or invite to a Hangout. You do not have control over who you connect with in an online game.

You're trying to reason this through from a technology perspective, which is not how others are thinking about it. What matters more is the perception, not the software that makes it happen. We think of Gchat, email and hangouts as private communication. But playing an online game is more like being in a public space, so we have less expectation of privacy. Online games already have mechanisms for reporting toxic players, so you know going in: someone else may look at what I said.

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:52PM (#11880380)
Genuine question : isn't there a more objective standard to be appealed to than perception? Is that really the only thing that's stopping Google from snooping through their own employees private emails, or from reselling them to the highest bidder?
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by carlmcqueen on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:22PM (#11879206)
Depends on the job actually, I'm licensed in the financial industry so my emails are all public record to the company compliance department.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:25PM (#11879227)
Work email, personal email, or both?
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by carlmcqueen on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:34PM (#11879318)
Work email actively, with an active complaint it can stem to personal email.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:38PM (#11879352)
> Work email actively, with an active complaint it can stem to personal email.

I think this is pretty dissimilar from the hypothetical I raised, that being screening the personal email of all potential hires.

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by minimaxir on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:52PM (#11878921)
League of Legends is a 5v5 team game, not a private 1v1 affair. Anything said in in a LoL game is as sufficiently public as a Twitter account.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:54PM (#11878944)
> League of Legends is a 5v5 team game, not a private 1v1 affair

Does this imply that chat in a 1v1 game is private? That doesn't really follow, since the only difference is the # of immediate spectators

> Anything said in in a LoL game is as sufficiently public as a Twitter account.

I suppose I see where you're coming from, but this feels like a stretch. For starters, the vast (utterly overwhelming) majority of LoL players do not have a real name associated with their gaming handle. They're theoretically similar, but in practice are far from equivalent.

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by huac on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:23PM (#11879211)
Chat disappears after the game, unless someone screenshots (so it's 10x less private than a Snapchat DM or a 1v1 game). But this is orders of magnitude less public than Twitter.
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by doktrin on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:26PM (#11879245)
> But this is orders of magnitude less public than Twitter

Couldn't agree more, honestly. However, I had to acknowledge that the parent had a point in that they were theoretically comparable.

Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by CocaKoala on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:12PM (#11880057)
Lots of people stream games, and lots of people watch those streams. Anything you say in public chat (or in team chat when your teammate is streaming) can be viewed by anybody who watches the stream or watches a recording of the stream. The potential audience is far greater than just "the ten players in the game at the moment".
Re:Riot uses League of Legends chatlogs to weed out toxic em... by palunon on Friday June 10, 2016 @06:29PM (#11880642)